Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

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Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by King Joker on Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:55 pm



This will be a debate only between the two members Fated Xtasy, who will be arguing for Jedi Master turned darksider Depa Billaba, and Emperordmb, who will be arguing for the powerful Sith Lord Kas'im.

Setting is neutral ground.

LET THE GAMES BEGIN!


Last edited by King Joker on Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:23 pm

Depa Billaba is a master of Vaapad - considered By mace to be the only other master of that form - citing that Sora Bulq never truly mastered Vaapad, but Vaapad mastered him.

While she is not much of a Force user. her speed and strength are incredibly impressive.

Note: Keep in mind that all of these feats are done by a highly weakened Depa Billaba who could barely stand alone at times.

With her speed, Depa's blade moved faster than the eye could follow, she was highly talented with the blade as even in a sparring match with Mace seemed everywhere at once(imagine how it would be if she wasn't holding back!) While defending against the separatist attack, Depa Billaba did something extremely impressive, she killed twenty four men in under less than a minute, in her duel with mace, she is stated to be faster than face, pressing him and hurting him several times in their duel and even in this fight against Mace, her blade seemed to be everywhere.  Her strength was great as well as despite their size difference and her fatigue, she was able to forcefully pull Mace down with strength that surprised him. Windu has stated that Billaba has shown blade work that surpassed his own. truly impressive for Depa Billaba.

As a duelist Billaba utilizes the Vaapad form and has mastered the form. With it she dueled on Par with Mace Windu himself, something more impressive is that the text states that Windu would have to give himself over fully to Vaapad if he hoped to defeat Billaba(paraphrasing)

Yoda praises Depa Billaba:

"Member of the Jedi Council, she is. Powerful Jedi. Brilliant warrior-"
------
he even considers her dangerous:

"If rogue she has gone. to find her, difficult it will be. To apprehend her." His voice dropped, as though the words caused him pain. "Dangerous, that will be."
------
Even when training, her blade seemed to be moving quite fast, imagine if she was fighting seriously!:

"Mace took a deep breath, finding himself once more looking at his hands, through his hands, seeing only an image in his mind, sharp as a dream: lightsaber against lightsaber in the Temple's training halls, the green flash of Depa's blade seeming to come from everywhere at once.

------

despite being in a weakened state, Mace notes that she has "astonishing strength":

She snatched his wrist and yanked him down toward her with astonishing strength.

------

This quote is one i really liked:

but she was defended by a Korun man and a Chalactan woman who handled Jedi energy blades as though they'd been born with them in hand.

Same as above:

"What are you waiting for?" Mace's deadpan was flawless. "Flowers and a box of candy?" Depa sprang into the open, blade flashing faster than the eye could follow, making herself a standing target to draw fire that she splashed back at their attackers while the others scrambled to their feet.

------

Depa demonstrates the use of Vaapad in the unorthodox Jar'Kai style:

His lightsaber leaped from its pocket within his vest and shot toward her like a bullet.

Her empty hand met it in midair; her pain-glazed eyes lost focus. He felt her in the Force: a sinking surrender like an exhausted swimmer drowning in a rising tide.

Slipping into Vaapad.

Eyes closed once more, she gave one slight nod.

ace keyed a sequence on the pilot console. The open door stayed open. The troop door on the opposite side dropped open as well.

Particle beams streaked into the troop bay.

Both blades flashed.

The gunships outside bucked under the impact of their own can-nonfire. On one, a turbojet engine blasted loose of its mount and tumbled away, bouncing down the mountainside trailing smoke and white-hot shreds of its cowling, and the gunship spun half out of control. The other gunship took its cannon blasts directly in the cockpit.

The transparisteel windscreen of a Sienar Turbostorm was thick and very durable; most kinds of shrapnel or fragments wouldn't scratch it. Even heavy-caliber bullets would leave only dents. A quad laser bolt could make a hole. One did.

The next five went through that hole.

The gunship spiralled into the jungle, its cockpit full of shredded flesh.

Depa opened her eyes.

They smoked with darkness.

------

and finally in her fight with Mace, she presses him to great degree:

He brought his blade back up from the pit and turned his wrist on the forehand so that his recovery stroke took her in the temple with his lightsaber's butt. Her fingers slipped off the blade's activation plate and it shrank back down through his body. She howled and punched his eyesocket with her free hand, but Mace got his foot wedged between them and he shoved her away with a powerful thrust.

At the same instant both of them backflipped into the air, landing on their feet poised in perfect mirror images, their blades whipping in identically curving slashes almost too fast to see.

Blaster bolts howled around them. The air crackled with streaks and splatters of energy. Their blades flickered and whipped and no bolt touched their flesh.

Their eyes never left each other's.

Something had torn in his guts when he did the backflip. Smoke trickled upward from the hole in his belly. He could smell it, but he felt no pain. Not yet. His blade whirred through the air.

Hers whirred faster. She advanced.

The slashes never stopped. They would never stop. They flowed one into the next with liquid precision.

This constant near-invisible weave of lethal energy is the ready-stance of Vaapad.

"Depa," Mace said desperately. "I don't want to fight you. Depa, please-"

She sprang at him, screaming without words; he couldn't know if she'd heard him. He couldn't know if language still had meaning for her.

Then she was on him. His whole world turned to green fire.

-------------------

Depa's blade was everywhere.

Mace backpedaled, parrying frantically, absorbing the shock of her attacks with bent arms and a two-handed grip. He was taller than she, with more reach and weight, and vastly more muscle in his upper body, but she drove him backward as though he were a child. Green flame struck through his guard, and only a frantic jerk of his head turned what would have been a brain-burning thrust into a line of char along his cheekbone.

Still he did not strike back.

"I will not kill you," he said. "Death is not the answer to your pain."

Her reply was a scream louder and more savage and an onslaught to match. She broke through his guard again and scorched his wrist. Another stroke burned a slice through his pants leg just above the knee.

Power roared around her, a rising storm of darkness.

Mace got it now: as each Akk Guard died, his share of pelekotan backflowed through the bonds Vaster had forged among them.

She was getting stronger.

And with each stroke of her blade, he could feel himself slipping into the shadows. He had to. She was too strong, too fast, too everything. The only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give all of himself.
------

Depa is extremely skilled with the blade, pressing Windu and striking with blows that were too strong, too fast and seemed everywhere, she moved faster than mace and displayed herself to be a highly powerful duelist.

All of these quotes are taken from Star Wars: Shatterpoint
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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:09 am

Well now, as Fated has already provided his analysis of Depa, I shall provide my analysis of Kas’im, respond to his analysis of Depa, then tie it up with a comparison of the two to prove Kas’im’s superiority. Good luck to you my nice droogie, and I’m sure this’ll be a fun and informative debate.


Lord Kas’im was a Dark Lord of the Sith in the Brotherhood of Darkness, renown for his unparalleled skill with a blade within the order. Though his life was ended shortly before the demise of the Brotherhood of Darkness, Kas’im left his own legacy on the galaxy through his former student, Darth Bane the Sith’ari. Through Kas’im’s training, Darth Bane was forged into a master duelist, and Kas’im’s killing of his master when he surpassed him was one of Bane’s sources of inspiration when creating the Rule of Two, the very principle upon which the Banite Sith were founded upon.

Kas’im’s skills with a blade were very widely respected amongst his fellow Sith. Lord Kaan, leader of the Brotherhood of Darkness, considered him the greatest duelist in the order, whose loyalty he could not afford to lose if he hoped to win the war against the Jedi.


Githany laughs at the notion that anyone could hope to match Kas’im’s combat performance, and she’s talking face to face with Kaan, whose power makes her practically orgasmic, to the point to which she likens him as “the very embodiment of the dark side.” At this point, Githany isn’t even aware of the full extent of Kas’im’s skills with a saberstaff, much less with Jar’kai.
“Path of Destruction” wrote:He radiated confidence and strength. He seemed to glow with a violet aura, as if he were the very embodiment of the dark side.
“Path of Destruction” wrote:Now it was she who felt fear. Lord Kaan radiated power: he could crush her as easily as she crushed the small beetles that sometimes scuttled across the floor of her tent.
“Path of Destruction” wrote:She laughed. "If he could handle Kas'im, then I doubt anyone else will stand a chance against him.

Bane also held Kas’im in extremely high esteem as a duelist. Bane considered the notion that he could take on Kas’im to be a preposterous one, and admits that he would stand no chance against Kas’im in a serious confrontation. Keep in mind that this was immediately after Bane crushed Sirak in a duel, who himself is insanely impressive. (Just a brief run down on Sirak: Sirak was considered unbeatable and the perfect being by many of the other students in the academy. The other students’ praise for Sirak’s skill sounded heavily exaggerated to Bane at first, however Bane considers these statements all too accurate after watching him train, and this is before Bane was fully aware of what Sirak could do beyond toying with him. Sirak could also seamlessly blend and switch between forms, and this was while toying with Bane. When Sirak gets serious and shows his true skill, beyond what Bane had seen before, Sirak is capable of blending several forms at once into his sequences and switching rapidly between different styles in complex patterns. For all of the quotes, go here: http://dmbempire.forumotion.com/t32-darth-bane-trilogy-minirespect-threads#99) Also keep in mind that this was before Bane himself was aware of Kas’im’s true skill with a saber staff, let alone Jar’kai.

Kas’im also has a lot going for him as far as speed goes. When wielding a saberstaff against Bane, Kas’im struck at a speed of ten strikes per second. Keep in mind that this is the speed Grievous fought at when pressing Dooku in their training matches, and when fending of Mace Windu in a lightsaber duel. This was also the speed at which Bane appeared invisible to a room full of the greatest Sith Apprentices in the Galaxy.
“Path of Destruction” wrote:Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times within the space of two heartbeats.

It should also be noted that Bane’s attacks pick up ferocity after that point, and he begins to outpace Kas’im in their fight. However, after Kas’im switches back to Jar’kai, he begins to outpace Bane to the point at which Bane makes a notable observation about Kas’im’s shift in speed.
“Path of Destruction” wrote:The Blademaster was unrelenting in his pressure. He seemed to wield six blades rather than two.

Kas’im’s power in the force, while not his forte, was also pretty impressive. Offensively, he was capable of using the force to blow open a heavy door, and was capable of penetrating Darth Bane’s force shield and knocking him down a flight of stairs, though Bane was admittedly off balance at the time.
“Path of Destruction” wrote:Recognizing what was happening, Kas'im blew open the heavy door of the side room with the Force and dived inside.
“Path of Destruction” wrote:But in his haste Bane had leapt too far; he was balanced precariously on the precipice of the uppermost stair, the steps falling sharply away behind him. Kas'im responded by using the Force to knock Bane backward, sending him tumbling down the great stone staircase, away from the Blademaster.

Kas’im’s force barrier was also rather extraordinary, allowing him to block the focal point of the wave that brought down the temple of the ancients.
“Path of Destruction” wrote:The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

And last, but certainly not least, we have what is perhaps Kas’im’s greatest accolade.
“Path of Destruction” wrote:Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever.
There are numerous impressive things to be extracted from that quote. First of all, it confirms Kas’im’s mastery of all seven forms of lightsaber combat (cept for Vaapad because it wasn’t invented yet). Then Kas’im, after mastering all seven forms, spent decades focused on honing his skills and perfecting every move and sequence of every form (given that Kas’im’s weapons of choice were paired lightsabers, this would include the moves applicable to a single bladed lightsaber, a saberstaff, and of course dual wielding). So essentially Kas’im mastered all seven forms, then spent decades perfecting every move and sequence of each form even further. His skill with the seven forms thus surpasses mastery. Even without showing his true skill to Bane, his technique and form were both described as “flawless.”

Then of course we get to the last part of that quote. The part that entertains the possibility that he may have been the greatest swordsman ever. Many challenge whether or not this was from an omniscient perspective, or Bane’s opinion. Drew Karpyshyn himself has even stated that this is up for debate. Ultimately however, I find whether or not it was omniscient perspective or Bane’s opinion less important than many would suggest. A person could take that quote at face value as an omniscient narrator point of view, which in my opinion is the more likely of the two, given that the book sometimes goes into omniscient perspective, even if the chapter is focused on a specific character. From an omniscient perspective, this quote is insanely impressive. Many people however view it as just Bane’s opinion, and therefore not impressive. This is a viewpoint held in error. Even if it were just Bane’s viewpoint, there would be a lot of credence to its impressiveness. Keep in mind, this is Darth Bane, a highly intelligent Sith Lord, who has spent hours upon hours in the Sith archives, reading the exaggerated accounts of the old Sith, that had them recorded as blowing up stars and moving planets with the force. Among these Sith would certainly be the likes of Exar Kun and Tulak Hord. Exar Kun greatly innovated lightsaber combat and his skills were considered unparalleled. Tulak Hord has an insane amount and magnitude of hype as a duelist in the mythos, with records of him single handedly breaking the Jedi front lines, and Traya considering the Exile and the other duelists of her time as being “children playing with toys” compared to Tulak and the other ancients. Bane has spent hours upon hours reading through the exaggerated accounts of these ancient Sith, and Bane also severely detests the Brotherhood. If Bane entertains the notion that Kas’im, a Sith from the Brotherhood, could possibly be the greatest duelist of all time even after reading the exaggerated accounts of the ancients, then it is insanely impressive hype indeed. Even if this accolade was just from Bane’s viewpoint (which I’d argue it wasn’t) it still doesn’t make too much of a difference, and is insanely impressive either way.



Now in response to some of Xtasy’s points…

Ughhhh!!!!! As much as I hate to say this after Carthage made the same argument, and made such an ass out of himself doing it… it is one that is actually relevant and reasonable, as long as you don’t take it to the same asinine extent that Carthage does.

Mace and Depa’s duel on Haruun Kal was circumstantial. Most obviously was the fact that Mace took a blade to the gut before engaging Depa in combat, which is a rather severe injury to be fighting with. Another factor is Mace’s mentality in that fight. Form VII, especially Vaapad, is largely based around ones mindset, and for one who seeks to avoid the Dark Side, such as Mace, a lot of control and a stable mindset is required when wielding Vaapad to not fall to the Dark Side. Now it is very clear that Mace is very emotionally conflicted in his fight against Depa, which would’ve hindered his performance, especially when attempting to wield Vaapad without falling to the Dark Side, and Mace does significantly struggle with not falling to the dark side.
“Shatterpoint” wrote:His own blade ignited-But he could not strike her. Even now. Not here, so close he could kiss her instead; not while her scream spiraled up into a shriek; not while he had to look into her wide staring eyes and see no hate or rage but only stark agony.
“Shatterpoint” wrote:Flashes of battle: shadows fleeing the bunker as swarms of screaming electric blue blaster bolts rebounding off walls shoot them to rags-- a flood of troopers spreading into a wave through the doorway, weapons gouting lightning-colored energy, Geptun in the middle of them, head down and running, datapad cradled like a baby in his arms-- a buzzing shield of silver flame that sliced through a blaster rifle so that it exploded and took with it the trooper's hands-These images burned in Mace's brain as he fought for his life against the woman who should have been his daughter.
“Shatterpoint” wrote:"Depa," Mace said desperately. "I don't want to fight you. Depa, please-"
“Shatterpoint” wrote:And with each stroke of her blade, he could feel himself slipping into the shadows.
“Shatterpoint” wrote:The only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give all of himself. To sink into pelekotaris dream.
“Shatterpoint” wrote:His fighting spirit wasn't destroyed. It wasn't even far away. He could feel where it had gone. He could reach out and touch it. It was waiting for him in the dark.

Then there is also the force bonds between Depa and the other members of Vastor’s group.
“Shatterpoint” wrote:Power roared around her, a rising storm of darkness. Mace got it now: as each Akk Guard died, his share of pelekotan backflowed through the bonds Vaster had forged among them. She was getting stronger.

And there’s the fact that Mace’s disadvantageous circumstances would only grow on him as he took more injuries because of them.

So to put it bluntly, her fight with Mace was rather circumstantial. Even so however, her performance in that fight impresses me enough to place her among the top duelists and Jedi of her era (and yes, that means above the damn B-team).

As far as her accolade from Mace goes, Mace often does humble himself in comparison with the other great duelists of his age, such as with Obi-wan Kenobi. There are also out-of-universe quotes placing Mace’s skill as second only to Yoda’s in the order. For these reasons, I feel that accolade isn’t accurate, however once again, I still find it really impressive and place her among the top duelists of her era.

As far as her being the only other person besides Mace to master Vaapad given that Vaapad mastered Bulq instead, I think it’s safe to say at this point that Vaapad mastered her as well… though I wouldn’t cite that as a detriment to her abilities. So really this point I’m making isn’t that relevant to her viability in combat, just something I felt the need to nitpick at Razz

Her sparring with Windu in the temple was highly impressive, so props for that Agreed

I also have to say that I was rather impressed by Yoda’s statements about her being dangerous, even to a man like Mace, so double props for that one Agreed




So my first impression of this fight is that Depa is insanely impressive as a duelist, but Kas’im’s built up mountain of hype, culminating in his BAMF quote, leads me to find Kas’im as the more skilled of the two duelists. Admittedly, Kas’im doesn’t know Vaapad, but that’s pretty much the only thing that does not fall under his belt as a duelist, given that he has perfected every other form beyond the point of mastery (including the other form seven variant, Juyo). Depa is known to be a master of Vaapad (or Vaapad mastered her, but I won’t deny her effectiveness with it in combat), as well as having a familiarity with Jar’kai, and is almost certainly proficient in Juyo, which includes skill in other forms as a requirement. I’m going to throw Depa a bone here and concede that she has skill in Niman, given her being a consular and having familiarity with Jar’kai, and Soresu, given her blast deflection alongside Mace, and that the Disney Continuity sees it as reasonable to consider her a Soresu practitioner. Ultimately however, with the exception of Vaapad, Kas’im’s skill with every other form surpasses Depa’s by a significant amount, he has a wider breadth of knowledge than Depa, with all forms but Vaapad, as well as the versatility of paired sabers. To put it bluntly, Depa has Vaapad on Kas’im, but Kas’im has literally everything else on her as far as his skill set goes, and given his mastery of Juyo, I doubt her Vaapad would prove too unpredictable for him, at least not as much so as his mastery over forms unfamiliar to her would be over her. Kas’im simply strikes me as the superior duelist.

Speed-wise, Kas’im’s striking speed approaches Grievous’s max, and Mace fought Grievous at half his max, while Depa fought a wounded emotionally conflicted Mace and outpaced him. Speed is a little harder to judge, but all I’ll say on that subject for now is that Kas’im won’t be at a disadvantage in the speed area. As far as force abilities go, Kas’im’s defenses are far more impressive, and unlike Depa, Kas’im actually has some offensive force feats. Based on Kas’im’s force defense, Depa would not be able to use telekinesis to her advantage here. Given that Kas’im is far more focused on dueling, and that he penetrated Bane’s guard while Bane was physically off-balance, I don’t think he’d utilize Telekinesis very extensively on the offense, but it’s something he could utilize if pressured or if Depa ends up physically unbalanced.

Kas’im impresses me more at the start of this debate, and I’m looking forward to seeing if Xtasy can change my mind. This is going to be a fun debate…

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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:28 am

Ughhhh!!!!! As much as I hate to say this after Carthage made the same argument, and made such an ass out of himself doing it… it is one that is actually relevant and reasonable, as long as you don’t take it to the same asinine extent that Carthage does.
Sigh, you asked for this.

Mace and Depa’s duel on Haruun Kal was circumstantial. Most obviously was the fact that Mace took a blade to the gut before engaging Depa in combat, which is a rather severe injury to be fighting with. Another factor is Mace’s mentality in that fight. Form VII, especially Vaapad, is largely based around ones mindset, and for one who seeks to avoid the Dark Side, such as Mace, a lot of control and a stable mindset is required when wielding Vaapad to not fall to the Dark Side. Now it is very clear that Mace is very emotionally conflicted in his fight against Depa, which would’ve hindered his performance, especially when attempting to wield Vaapad without falling to the Dark Side, and Mace does significantly struggle with not falling to the dark side.
Circumstantial, yet, despite that, Depa put him the defensive and moved faster than him, struck with stronger blows and was to everything for him, He at a disadvantage sure. I’ll concede that, doesn’t change the fact that she had already surpassed his own blade work by then. He even credits her with saving his life against the giant mutated Akk dogs they both took on years ago.
Then there is also the force bonds between Depa and the other members of Vastor’s group.

That wasn’t a force bond, which each person that was killed, with more suffering, she grew more powerful.  How can a dead force-bond mate amplify a force user? :/

And there’s the fact that Mace’s disadvantageous circumstances would only grow on him as he took more injuries because of them.

Elaborate, If you’re referring to Mace having trekked through the jungles and having fought constantly, then I should remind you that Depa did the same thing…for months.

So to put it bluntly, her fight with Mace was rather circumstantial. Even so however, her performance in that fight impresses me enough to place her among the top duelists and Jedi of her era (and yes, that means above the damn B-team).
Sigh, lol, I seriously want to know what Carthage would make of you agreeing with him.
As far as her accolade from Mace goes, Mace often does humble himself in comparison with the other great duelists of his age, such as with Obi-wan Kenobi. There are also out-of-universe quotes placing Mace’s skill as second only to Yoda’s in the order. For these reasons, I feel that accolade isn’t accurate, however once again; I still find it really impressive and place her among the top duelists of her era.

Yet, unlike with others this was his padawan and she proved her skill when she fought against him, speedblitzed twenty-four men in under a minute, moved faster than the eye could follow and moved her blade as though she were everywhere.

As far as her being the only other person besides Mace to master Vaapad given that Vaapad mastered Bulq instead, I think it’s safe to say at this point that Vaapad mastered her as well… though I wouldn’t cite that as a detriment to her abilities. So really this point I’m making isn’t that relevant to her viability in combat, just something I felt the need to nitpick at Razz
Eh true enough I suppose.

Her sparring with Windu in the temple was highly impressive, so props for that Agreed

Her sparring match is not what “wank” If she were  actually trying, I shudder at the thought of how fast she would move.  Hell if she killed twenty-four men in under a minute, then she must be incredibly fast.

So my first impression of this fight is that Depa is insanely impressive as a duelist, but Kas’im’s built up mountain of hype, culminating in his BAMF quote, leads me to find Kas’im as the more skilled of the two duelists. Admittedly, Kas’im doesn’t know Vaapad, but that’s pretty much the only thing that does not fall under his belt as a duelist, given that he has perfected every other form beyond the point of mastery (including the other form seven variant, Juyo). Depa is known to be a master of Vaapad (or Vaapad mastered her, but I won’t deny her effectiveness with it in combat), as well as having a familiarity with Jar’kai, and is almost certainly proficient in Juyo, which includes skill in other forms as a requirement. I’m going to throw Depa a bone here and concede that she has skill in Niman, given her being a consular and having familiarity with Jar’kai, and Soresu, given her blast deflection alongside Mace, and that the Disney Continuity sees it as reasonable to consider her a Soresu practitioner. Ultimately however, with the exception of Vaapad, Kas’im’s skill with every other form surpasses Depa’s by a significant amount, he has a wider breadth of knowledge than Depa, with all forms but Vaapad, as well as the versatility of paired sabers. To put it bluntly, Depa has Vaapad on Kas’im, but Kas’im has literally everything else on her as far as his skill set goes, and given his mastery of Juyo, I doubt her Vaapad would prove too unpredictable for him, at least not as much so as his mastery over forms unfamiliar to her would be over her. Kas’im simply strikes me as the superior duelist.

However, Vaapad grants her a significant edge over Kas’im, and her Juyo would be just as effective. His skill is highly impressive, there is no doubt. However was mace not a master of all the lightsaber forms as well? Yet , even with that – and his injuries, he felt he needed to resort to Vaapad – to fall fully into Vaapad, out of all of his forms, to defeat Billaba.  

Speed-wise, Kas’im’s striking speed approaches Grievous’s max, and Mace fought Grievous at half his max, while Depa fought a wounded emotionally conflicted Mace and outpaced him. Speed is a little harder to judge, but all I’ll say on that subject for now is that Kas’im won’t be at a disadvantage in the speed area. As far as force abilities go, Kas’im’s defenses are far more impressive, and unlike Depa, Kas’im actually has some offensive force feats. Based on Kas’im’s force defense, Depa would not be able to use telekinesis to her advantage here. Given that Kas’im is far more focused on dueling, and that he penetrated Bane’s guard while Bane was physically off-balance, I don’t think he’d utilize Telekinesis very extensively on the offense, but it’s something he could utilize if pressured or if Depa ends up physically unbalanced.

Alright, speed wise, she’s blitzed 24 fully armed men and emerged unharmed, She moved faster than the eye could perceive – I would say that this was said from Mace’s point of view, but I am unsure atm. Again even in Training match her blade seemed everywhere and in their fight against the mutated Akk dogs on Nal Hutta, she and Mace move in synch like true masters of Vaapad. Force wise she isn’t that impressive.  Yet her force augmented strength and speed is impressive.

They are both skilled duelists, However Kas’im’s main problem will be the same problem Sidious faced against Windu, and that is Vaapad. Seeing as how the following quotes state the following:

[quote=ShatterPoint)He radiated confidence and strength. He seemed to glow with a violet aura, as if he were the very embodiment of the dark side.[/quote]

Vaapad channels the dark energy one has as well as the dark energy of their opponent. Given this, I think it’s safe to say that Billaba would be amplified by Vaapad against Kas’im and she would immediately press him like she did against Mace.  Something she did while fatigued and needed help to stand up and even Mace noted her as “fragile”

I could pull the same thing Carthage does and state that Korriban and Lehon are both Dark side nexus’ but, it’s simply not true. Plus saying that would make me a hypocrite and I’d rather keep my track record clean.


Simply put, Billaba is extremely fast and so is Kas’im,  however the fact that she moved faster than Mace Windu shows her prowess, even in a training match, against twenty-four armed soldiers and batting away blaster fire by redirecting it back through the hole it came through shows her precision.  She forced Windu into falling fully into Vaapad, despite him being a master of all the seven forms. Not to mention her ferocity is considered a direct peer to Mace’s own:

here is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba
- Star Wars: Revenge Of The Sith.

Billaba is a ferocious opponent, Yoda considered her dangerous even for someone like Mace Windu, her speed is extremely impressive, her skilled with the blade is her most impressive show of prowess. Kas’im himself is also fast and impressive, but Her “amp” from Vaapad would give her a substantial  advantage over Kas’im
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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:41 pm

Fated Xtasy wrote:
Mace and Depa’s duel on Haruun Kal was circumstantial. Most obviously was the fact that Mace took a blade to the gut before engaging Depa in combat, which is a rather severe injury to be fighting with. Another factor is Mace’s mentality in that fight. Form VII, especially Vaapad, is largely based around ones mindset, and for one who seeks to avoid the Dark Side, such as Mace, a lot of control and a stable mindset is required when wielding Vaapad to not fall to the Dark Side. Now it is very clear that Mace is very emotionally conflicted in his fight against Depa, which would’ve hindered his performance, especially when attempting to wield Vaapad without falling to the Dark Side, and Mace does significantly struggle with not falling to the dark side.
Circumstantial, yet, despite that, Depa put him the defensive and moved faster than him, struck with stronger blows and was to everything for him, He at a disadvantage sure. I’ll concede that, doesn’t change the fact that she had already surpassed his own blade work by then. He even credits her with saving his life against the giant mutated Akk dogs they both took on years ago.
A rather major disadvantage. Being impaled with a lightsaber to the point to which his wound is smoking while he's fighting is a pretty serious injury. He even realizes that something tore inside his guts after doing a backflip before they actually started dueling. Mace's fucked up state of mind is also rather disadvantageous considering his entire fighting style is based around his state of mind. Given that Mace's mindset was messed up, and that he was injured, I think it's safe to say that Mace was definitely not performing at peak strength or speed.

Could you provide me with the quote for that accolade please?

Fated Xtasy wrote:
Then there is also the force bonds between Depa and the other members of Vastor’s group.

That wasn’t a force bond, which each person that was killed, with more suffering, she grew more powerful.  How can a dead force-bond mate amplify a force user? :/
The quote states that Vastor forged bonds between them, and that every time one of them died, their force energy would backflow to the surviving members, to the point at which there was a raging storm around Depa, and Depa snapped out of her fury once they stopped dying.

Fated Xtasy wrote:
And there’s the fact that Mace’s disadvantageous circumstances would only grow on him as he took more injuries because of them.

Elaborate, If you’re referring to Mace having trekked through the jungles and having fought constantly, then I should remind you that Depa did the same thing…for months.
I was mainly stating that the additional injuries Mace received in their fight as a result of his disadvantages would've expedited his defeat, but this was a rather poor point, so I'm going to drop it. (meaning no reply to this point is necessary)

Fated Xtasy wrote:
So to put it bluntly, her fight with Mace was rather circumstantial. Even so however, her performance in that fight impresses me enough to place her among the top duelists and Jedi of her era (and yes, that means above the damn B-team).
Sigh, lol, I seriously want to know what Carthage would make of you agreeing with him.
Carthage takes that argument to the retarded extreme of "Depa sucks and she'd get stomped by any of the B-team, and she's a shitty fighter." I simply don't think that Depa>Mace, but still have her as like the 5th or 6th top Jedi of her era.

Fated Xtasy wrote:
As far as her accolade from Mace goes, Mace often does humble himself in comparison with the other great duelists of his age, such as with Obi-wan Kenobi. There are also out-of-universe quotes placing Mace’s skill as second only to Yoda’s in the order. For these reasons, I feel that accolade isn’t accurate, however once again; I still find it really impressive and place her among the top duelists of her era.

Yet, unlike with others this was his padawan and she proved her skill when she fought against him, speedblitzed twenty-four men in under a minute, moved faster than the eye could follow and moved her blade as though she were everywhere.
I'm not denying that she is highly skilled, just that she is more skilled than Mace, which other quotes would suggest only Yoda is. Again, could you provide the quote? I'm not doubting that it exists, just would like to see it in context.

Fated Xtasy wrote:
Her sparring with Windu in the temple was highly impressive, so props for that Agreed

Her sparring match is not what “wank” If she were  actually trying, I shudder at the thought of how fast she would move.  Hell if she killed twenty-four men in under a minute, then she must be incredibly fast.
And Kas'im approaching Grievous's striking speed is also incredibly fast. I don't think speed will be a problem for Kas'im here.

Fated Xtasy wrote:
So my first impression of this fight is that Depa is insanely impressive as a duelist, but Kas’im’s built up mountain of hype, culminating in his BAMF quote, leads me to find Kas’im as the more skilled of the two duelists. Admittedly, Kas’im doesn’t know Vaapad, but that’s pretty much the only thing that does not fall under his belt as a duelist, given that he has perfected every other form beyond the point of mastery (including the other form seven variant, Juyo). Depa is known to be a master of Vaapad (or Vaapad mastered her, but I won’t deny her effectiveness with it in combat), as well as having a familiarity with Jar’kai, and is almost certainly proficient in Juyo, which includes skill in other forms as a requirement. I’m going to throw Depa a bone here and concede that she has skill in Niman, given her being a consular and having familiarity with Jar’kai, and Soresu, given her blast deflection alongside Mace, and that the Disney Continuity sees it as reasonable to consider her a Soresu practitioner. Ultimately however, with the exception of Vaapad, Kas’im’s skill with every other form surpasses Depa’s by a significant amount, he has a wider breadth of knowledge than Depa, with all forms but Vaapad, as well as the versatility of paired sabers. To put it bluntly, Depa has Vaapad on Kas’im, but Kas’im has literally everything else on her as far as his skill set goes, and given his mastery of Juyo, I doubt her Vaapad would prove too unpredictable for him, at least not as much so as his mastery over forms unfamiliar to her would be over her. Kas’im simply strikes me as the superior duelist.

However, Vaapad grants her a significant edge over Kas’im, and her Juyo would be just as effective. His skill is highly impressive, there is no doubt. However was mace not a master of all the lightsaber forms as well? Yet , even with that – and his injuries, he felt he needed to resort to Vaapad – to fall fully into Vaapad, out of all of his forms, to defeat Billaba.
Kas'im's mastery of the other forms supersedes Mace's though.

Fated Xtasy wrote:
Speed-wise, Kas’im’s striking speed approaches Grievous’s max, and Mace fought Grievous at half his max, while Depa fought a wounded emotionally conflicted Mace and outpaced him. Speed is a little harder to judge, but all I’ll say on that subject for now is that Kas’im won’t be at a disadvantage in the speed area. As far as force abilities go, Kas’im’s defenses are far more impressive, and unlike Depa, Kas’im actually has some offensive force feats. Based on Kas’im’s force defense, Depa would not be able to use telekinesis to her advantage here. Given that Kas’im is far more focused on dueling, and that he penetrated Bane’s guard while Bane was physically off-balance, I don’t think he’d utilize Telekinesis very extensively on the offense, but it’s something he could utilize if pressured or if Depa ends up physically unbalanced.

Alright, speed wise, she’s blitzed 24 fully armed men and emerged unharmed, She moved faster than the eye could perceive – I would say that this was said from Mace’s point of view, but I am unsure atm. Again even in Training match her blade seemed everywhere and in their fight against the mutated Akk dogs on Nal Hutta, she and Mace move in synch like true masters of Vaapad. Force wise she isn’t that impressive.  Yet her force augmented strength and speed is impressive.
Again, impressive for her speed, but Kas'im's own speed is still insanely impressive. At the very least, Kas'im is not going to have a problem speed-wise.

Fated Xtasy wrote:They are both skilled duelists, However Kas’im’s main problem will be the same problem Sidious faced against Windu, and that is Vaapad. Seeing as how the following quotes state the following:

Path of Destruction wrote:He radiated confidence and strength. He seemed to glow with a violet aura, as if he were the very embodiment of the dark side.

Vaapad channels the dark energy one has as well as the dark energy of their opponent. Given this, I think it’s safe to say that Billaba would be amplified by Vaapad against Kas’im and she would immediately press him like she did against Mace.  Something she did while fatigued and needed help to stand up and even Mace noted her as “fragile”
That quote was referring to Lord Kaan, not Kas'im. That quote was merely used to make the point that Githany considered Kas'im to easily be the greatest combatant in the order, despite her orgasmic viewpoint on Kaan's power. So yeah, that quote was referring to Kaan, not Kas'im. What's also impressive is that Githany was unaware of Kas'im's full capabilities with a saberstaff even, much less with Jar'kai. She also didn't seem very fatigued and fragile in that fight.


Fated Xtasy wrote:Simply put, Billaba is extremely fast and so is Kas’im,  however the fact that she moved faster than Mace Windu shows her prowess,
An injured Mace. Still impressive, but it doesn't put her speed above Kas'im's (which is no insult to her speed by the way).

Fated Xtasy wrote:even in a training match, against twenty-four armed soldiers and batting away blaster fire by redirecting it back through the hole it came through shows her precision.
Kas'im's form and technique were described as flawless. He emphasizes precision with his students stating that there is no room for error, and making them perform the move in exactly the right position and angle until they perform the move correctly. And Kas'im perfected every move and sequence of every form (including Makashi). Precision is certainly well under Kas'im's belt.

Fated Xtasy wrote:She forced Windu into falling fully into Vaapad, despite him being a master of all the seven forms.
He pulled back from falling fully into Vaapad, and Kas'im's mastery of the other forms is more impressive than Mace's.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Not to mention her ferocity is considered a direct peer to Mace’s own:

here is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba
- Star Wars: Revenge Of The Sith.
Could I have that entire quote please?

Fated Xtasy wrote:Billaba is a ferocious opponent, Yoda considered her dangerous even for someone like Mace Windu, her speed is extremely impressive, her skilled with the blade is her most impressive show of prowess. Kas’im himself is also fast and impressive, but Her “amp” from Vaapad would give her a substantial  advantage over Kas’im
Kas'im's skill with a blade is more impressive, and her Vaapad amp would not be particularly monumental considering that she performs most of the time with that amp, and that the quote you were citing to prove it would be extremely effective with Kas'im was actually referring to Kaan.


If I may ask, do you consider Depa to be more powerful than Windu? Just to clarify your position and arguments.


So far this has been an excellent debate, we've both made excellent points, we're doing so on friendly and civil terms, and I look forward to continuing this debate.

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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:07 pm

Emperordmb wrote:A rather major disadvantage. Being impaled with a lightsaber to the point to which his wound is smoking while he's fighting is a pretty serious injury. He even realizes that something tore inside his guts after doing a backflip before they actually started dueling. Mace's fucked up state of mind is also rather disadvantageous considering his entire fighting style is based around his state of mind. Given that Mace's mindset was messed up, and that he was injured, I think it's safe to say that Mace was definitely not performing at peak strength or speed.

Could you provide me with the quote for that accolade please?

Several things within the book Contradict that statement:

"Something had torn in his guts when he did the backflip. Smoke trickled upward from the hole in his belly. He could smell it, but he felt no pain. Not yet. His blade whirred through the air."
--Star Wars: Shatterpoint

"Mace backpedaled, parrying frantically, absorbing the shock of her attacks with bent arms and a two-handed grip. He was taller than she, with more reach and weight, and vastly more muscle in his upper body, but she drove him backward as though he were a child. "
-- Star Wars: Shatterpoint

Windu only felt his wounds come down on him when Nick Rostu - a Korun with whom he shared a force bond with as well, was seemingly killed:

"Through the trace of Force connection he had with Nick, Mace felt the young Korun collapse. Something broke inside his head, and all his own wounds crashed upon him.

Every cut and bruise, every cracked bone and sprained joint, the man-bite on his shoulder and the hole through his guts: all of them blossomed into silent screams."
--Star Wars: Shatterpoint

Yet, even with the the text states the following:

"In the Force, Mace felt Geptun's despair. It felt like a gift. Another man might even have smiled."
This despair gave Windu enough of an amp, that he dodged Billaba's strikes and maneuvered the fight so that when she missed she would hit terminals to assist Geptun.

Here is the accolade you asked for:

"FROM THE PRIVATE JOURNALS OF MACE WlNDU I had come to Nar Shaddaa to track down exotic-animal smugglers who had sold attack- trained akk dogs to the Red laro terrorists of Lannik-and Depa had followed me to the Smugglers' Moon because she had suspected I might need her help. How right she was: even together, we barely survived. It was a terrible fight, against mutated giant akks for the amusement of the Circus Horrificus patrons- But remembering it in the jungle, I found that my eyes filled with tears.

On that day in Nar Shaddaa, she showed me blade work that surpassed my own; she had continued to grow and study and progress in Vaapad as well as the Force.

She made me so very proud.

It had been years since she had passed her Trials of Knighthood; she had long been a Jedi Master, and a member of the Council; but for that one day, we had again been Mace and Depa, Master and Padawan, pitting the lethal efficiency of Vaapad against the worst the galaxy could throw at us. We fought as we had so many times: a perfectly integrated unit, augmenting each other's strengths, countering each other's weaknesses, and on that day it seemed we should have never done anything else. As Jedi Knights, we were unbeatable. As Masters, members of the Council- What have we won? Anything?"
--Star Wars: Shatterpoint

The quote states that Vastor forged bonds between them, and that every time one of them died, their force energy would backflow to the surviving members, to the point at which there was a raging storm around Depa, and Depa snapped out of her fury once they stopped dying.

Depa was already pressing Windu with her speed before the Akk guards started to fall. :/

Carthage takes that argument to the retarded extreme of "Depa sucks and she'd get stomped by any of the B-team, and she's a shitty fighter." I simply don't think that Depa>Mace, but still have her as like the 5th or 6th top Jedi of her era.

I wasn't stating that you agree with all of his argument just that one in particular lol. I hold Kas'im at negative five-hundred and sixty-two. near Aayla level I Win

Jk lol

I'm not denying that she is highly skilled, just that she is more skilled than Mace, which other quotes would suggest only Yoda is. Again, could you provide the quote? I'm not doubting that it exists, just would like to see it in context.

"On that day in Nar Shaddaa, she showed me blade work that surpassed my own; she had continued to grow and study and progress in Vaapad as well as the Force."
--Star Wars: Shatterpoint

And Kas'im approaching Grievous's striking speed is also incredibly fast. I don't think speed will be a problem for Kas'im here.

By this point, Mace has beaten Sora Bulq, Quinlan vos, finished a fight in "less than five seconds" and moved faster than a blaster bolt, yet Billaba moved faster than him [b[before[/b] she was getting an amp by the death of the Akk guards.

Kas'im's mastery of the other forms supersedes Mace's though.

While i don't put much weight on the words of authors(unless it's lucas himself) Nick Gilliard stated the following:

"Nick Gillard : We didn't see Mace fighting yet, but we know that he is second only to Yoda..."
--Star Wars Episode II: Action Featurette

And the Dark Rendezvous novel supports this:

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his (Count Dooku)

equal on neutral ground."
--Star Wars:Shatterpoint

Mace is considered second to Yoda and the only other warrior capable of matching Dooku's skill. Kas'im may be skilled, however i doubt he is on the same level as the man who is the second most powerful member of the jedi council

Again, impressive for her speed, but Kas'im's own speed is still insanely impressive. At the very least, Kas'im is not going to have a problem speed-wise.

I Agree, Though Billaba will not have any difficulty in the speed department either... So we concede that they're both equals in speed? or at the very least they won't blitz each other out right? lol

That quote was referring to Lord Kaan, not Kas'im. That quote was merely used to make the point that Githany considered Kas'im to easily be the greatest combatant in the order, despite her orgasmic viewpoint on Kaan's power. So yeah, that quote was referring to Kaan, not Kas'im. What's also impressive is that Githany was unaware of Kas'im's full capabilities with a saberstaff even, much less with Jar'kai. She also didn't seem very fatigued and fragile in that fight.

So many quotes to find Sad

"She sat on the edge of a long, padded chaise. She wore the tatters of Jedi robes over the rough homespun of a jungle Korun. Her hair was as he had seen at the outpost: ragged, greasy, hacked short as though she'd used a knife to trim it without the benefit of a mirror. Her face was every bit as thin as he had seen it: her cheekbones sharp, and her jaw going prominent. The burn scar was there, from one corner of her hardship-thinned mouth to the point of her jaw- But instead of a blindfold, she wore the strip of dirty rag tied around her forehead, concealing the Greater Mark of Illumination."
--Star Wars; Shatterpoint

And then there's this one which was a bit before they fought against one another:

"Depa tottered to her feet. "Mace." Her voice trickled off into a whimper of pain; she lowered her head and clenched her jaw, pulling herself together by sheer willpower. "Mace, we can't let the militia kill those people. Your people-" "My people," said Mace Windu, "are Jedi." He lifted his head, and he didn't look beaten at all. "Nick." Nick Rostu looked up from the console where he was huddled with a pair of troopers, and his eyes sparkled. "Got him. The Ministry of Justice. Pegged him with his own bloody satellites!" Depa looked stunned; Kar Vastor's face birthed a predatory grin.

Mace nodded. "Depa. Time to fight. Are you strong enough?" She passed a hand before her face, and her gaze sharpened for a moment, but then she sagged, holding herself up with one hand while the other pressed against her temple. "I–I think so, Mace-but it's too, too-there's so much." The ragged exhaustion in her voice twisted in his stomach like a knife. "All right. Stay here." "No-no, I can fight-" "Perhaps you can. But I can't, while I know that you're about to collapse. You're staying."
--Star Wars: Shatterpoint

She was borderline exhausted and weakening.

An injured Mace. Still impressive, but it doesn't put her speed above Kas'im's (which is no insult to her speed by the way).

A Mace who was also being amplfied by his connection to Nick Rostu, only when he felt Nick fall, did he begin to waver, yet even then the text states that his fighting spirit had not deminished.

Kas'im's form and technique were described as flawless. He emphasizes precision with his students stating that there is no room for error, and making them perform the move in exactly the right position and angle until they perform the move correctly. And Kas'im perfected every move and sequence of every form (including Makashi). Precision is certainly well under Kas'im's belt.

Impressive, however Billaba has been called a direct peer to Mace by outside sources and "a whirlwind of destruction" due to her mastery of Vaapad.

He pulled back from falling fully into Vaapad, and Kas'im's mastery of the other forms is more impressive than Mace's.

Because he received an amp from Geptun's despair :/

Kas'im's skill with a blade is more impressive, and her Vaapad amp would not be particularly monumental considering that she performs most of the time with that amp, and that the quote you were citing to prove it would be extremely effective with Kas'im was actually referring to Kaan.

Shiet, lol i thought it was about Kas'im my bad. but again Depa has multiple sources citing her to be a lethal opponent and skilled duelist, he may have several Forms under his belt, but so did Mace, yet he was on the defensive. Billaba's style is plays a big part in this fight as it's completely unknown to Kas'im and despite Mace's mastery of all forms, he failed to beat Billaba.

If I may ask, do you consider Depa to be more powerful than Windu? Just to clarify your position and arguments.

More powerful? no, she should be in the top five or at the very least top Ten. i feel like she's more or less equal to him in sabers, but lack an advantage against him in Force powers

So far this has been an excellent debate, we've both made excellent points, we're doing so on friendly and civil terms, and I look forward to continuing this debate.

Agreed, I can't wait for your response(don't feel obligated to rush and respond, take your time, respond when you can) Fated Xtasy LMAO at that pic btw.
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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:17 pm

Fated Xtasy wrote:Several things within the book Contradict that statement:

"Something had torn in his guts when he did the backflip. Smoke trickled upward from the hole in his belly. He could smell it, but he felt no pain. Not yet. His blade whirred through the air."
--Star Wars: Shatterpoint

"Mace backpedaled, parrying frantically, absorbing the shock of her attacks with bent arms and a two-handed grip. He was taller than she, with more reach and weight, and vastly more muscle in his upper body, but she drove him backward as though he were a child. "
-- Star Wars: Shatterpoint

Windu only felt his wounds come down on him when Nick Rostu - a Korun with whom he shared a force bond with as well, was seemingly killed:

"Through the trace of Force connection he had with Nick, Mace felt the young Korun collapse. Something broke inside his head, and all his own wounds crashed upon him.

Every cut and bruise, every cracked bone and sprained joint, the man-bite on his shoulder and the hole through his guts: all of them blossomed into silent screams."
--Star Wars: Shatterpoint
Mace not feeling the pain of the injury does not mean the injury wasn't detrimental to him. To the contrary, being stabbed through the abdomen and something tearing in his guts would be a huge detriment to his core strength/stability. Core strength/stability is tension in the abdominal area used for balanced movement and generating force, and it is a rather important part of martial arts. Basically, a lot of strength and force is reliant on the stability of that abdominal region, and Mace just got stabbed through the abdomen and had his guts tear inside of him. Then of course, there's still his rather messed up mentality in this fight, which I have already elaborated on being a huge part of Vaapad. So yes, I definitely don't think Mace was performing at his peak physical state or mental state there.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Yet, even with the the text states the following:

"In the Force, Mace felt Geptun's despair. It felt like a gift. Another man might even have smiled."
This despair gave Windu enough of an amp, that he dodged Billaba's strikes and maneuvered the fight so that when she missed she would hit terminals to assist Geptun.
I'm not really sure how this quote helps your argument. Essentially, Windu felt Geptun's despair, then dropped his lightsaber and started dodging her strikes. I really don't see how this addresses Depa overpowering him in a duel.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Here is the accolade you asked for:

"FROM THE PRIVATE JOURNALS OF MACE WlNDU I had come to Nar Shaddaa to track down exotic-animal smugglers who had sold attack- trained akk dogs to the Red laro terrorists of Lannik-and Depa had followed me to the Smugglers' Moon because she had suspected I might need her help. How right she was: even together, we barely survived. It was a terrible fight, against mutated giant akks for the amusement of the Circus Horrificus patrons- But remembering it in the jungle, I found that my eyes filled with tears.

On that day in Nar Shaddaa, she showed me blade work that surpassed my own; she had continued to grow and study and progress in Vaapad as well as the Force.

She made me so very proud.

It had been years since she had passed her Trials of Knighthood; she had long been a Jedi Master, and a member of the Council; but for that one day, we had again been Mace and Depa, Master and Padawan, pitting the lethal efficiency of Vaapad against the worst the galaxy could throw at us. We fought as we had so many times: a perfectly integrated unit, augmenting each other's strengths, countering each other's weaknesses, and on that day it seemed we should have never done anything else. As Jedi Knights, we were unbeatable. As Masters, members of the Council- What have we won? Anything?"
--Star Wars: Shatterpoint
That quote was referencing a mission in 32 BBY. From the onset of the Clone Wars (22 BBY) up until Revenge of the Sith (19 BBY), Windu is hyped as being second only to Yoda via out of universe sources. Furthermore, Dooku was known to best Mace in sparring matches during their time together as Jedi, but once Dooku becomes even more powerful as a Sith, he considers Mace a possible equal and Mace even drives him to a retreat on Boz Pity. Mace has clearly improved since then, and at the time of his peak has accolades superior to Depa's. While Depa's accolade is still impressive, it is not in comparison to Windu at his peak.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Depa was already pressing Windu with her speed before the Akk guards started to fall. :/
The fight with the Akk guards started while Depa's blade was still stabbed through Windu's torso. And plus, you know, Windu had been stabbed through the torso and had a screwed up mentality.

Fated Xtasy wrote:By this point, Mace has beaten Sora Bulq, Quinlan vos, finished a fight in "less than five seconds" and moved faster than a blaster bolt, yet Billaba moved faster than him [b[before[/b] she was getting an amp by the  death of the Akk guards.
Sora Bulq and Quinlan Vos aren't as fast as Kas'im. What exactly was the less than five seconds finish to that fight? Because we know Kas'im can let loose 15-20 strikes in a second.

Fated Xtasy wrote:While i don't put much weight on the words of authors(unless it's lucas himself) Nick Gilliard stated the following:

"Nick Gillard : We didn't see Mace fighting yet, but we know that he is second only to Yoda..."
--Star Wars Episode II: Action Featurette

And the Dark Rendezvous novel supports this:

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his (Count Dooku)

equal on neutral ground."
--Star Wars:Shatterpoint

Mace is considered second to Yoda and the only other warrior capable of matching Dooku's skill.
Mhmmm. Thank you for that actually. It illustrates an earlier point of mine in this response.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Kas'im may be skilled, however i doubt he is on the same level as the man who is the second most powerful member of the jedi council
By virtue of those quotes and that argument, neither is Depa. But that point you responded too was Mace and Kas'im's mastery of the other non-Vaapad forms. Windu has an accolade confirming his mastery of all seven forms. Kas'im also has a quote stating that he mastered all seven forms, however Kas'im's accolade also reveals that Kas'im has spent decades since then further perfecting every move of each form.

Fated Xtasy wrote:I Agree, Though Billaba will not have any difficulty in the speed department either... So we concede that they're both equals in speed? or at the very least they won't blitz each other out right? lol
I'm not conceding that their equals in speed, but I can agree to no-blitzing and that either should be able to hold their own in this department.

Fated Xtasy wrote:So many quotes to find Sad

"She sat on the edge of a long, padded chaise. She wore the tatters of Jedi robes over the rough homespun of a jungle Korun. Her hair was as he had seen at the outpost: ragged, greasy, hacked short as though she'd used a knife to trim it without the benefit of a mirror. Her face was every bit as thin as he had seen it: her cheekbones sharp, and her jaw going prominent. The burn scar was there, from one corner of her hardship-thinned mouth to the point of her jaw- But instead of a blindfold, she wore the strip of dirty rag tied around her forehead, concealing the Greater Mark of Illumination."
--Star Wars; Shatterpoint

And then there's this one which was a bit before they fought against one another:

"Depa tottered to her feet. "Mace." Her voice trickled off into a whimper of pain; she lowered her head and clenched her jaw, pulling herself together by sheer willpower. "Mace, we can't let the militia kill those people. Your people-" "My people," said Mace Windu, "are Jedi." He lifted his head, and he didn't look beaten at all. "Nick." Nick Rostu looked up from the console where he was huddled with a pair of troopers, and his eyes sparkled. "Got him. The Ministry of Justice. Pegged him with his own bloody satellites!" Depa looked stunned; Kar Vastor's face birthed a predatory grin.

Mace nodded. "Depa. Time to fight. Are you strong enough?" She passed a hand before her face, and her gaze sharpened for a moment, but then she sagged, holding herself up with one hand while the other pressed against her temple. "I–I think so, Mace-but it's too, too-there's so much." The ragged exhaustion in her voice twisted in his stomach like a knife. "All right. Stay here." "No-no, I can fight-" "Perhaps you can. But I can't, while I know that you're about to collapse. You're staying."
--Star Wars: Shatterpoint

She was borderline exhausted and weakening.
Were that the case, she wouldn't have been able to put up such a performance. I think it's very obvious that given the descriptions of her in that fight, namely "her eyes smoking with darkness", that she wasn't in that same fragile state when she fought Windu, be it by mentality, force bonds, death of peeps, or some other thing. This is something I'll have to look further into.

Fated Xtasy wrote:A Mace who was also being amplfied by his connection to Nick Rostu, only when he felt Nick fall, did he begin to waver, yet even then the text states that his fighting spirit had not deminished.
And Depa had a connection to Vastor and the Akk guards. He was unable to utilize that fighting spirit without falling to the Dark Side though, so he didn't.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Impressive, however Billaba has been called a direct peer to Mace by outside sources and "a whirlwind of destruction" due to her mastery of Vaapad.
That point was about Kas'im's precision as a response to your claim about Depa's precision.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Shiet, lol i thought it was about Kas'im my bad. but again Depa has multiple sources citing her to be a lethal opponent and skilled duelist, he may have several Forms under his belt, but so did Mace, yet he was on the defensive. Billaba's style is plays a big part in this fight as it's completely unknown to Kas'im and despite Mace's mastery of all forms, he failed to beat Billaba.
Though Kas'im has never seen Vaapad before, given that Kas'im mastered Form VII's other variant and perfected every move and maneuver of it, I doubt it will be any more unfamiliar to him than the forms he possesses that Depa does not. And I'll reiterate that Kas'im's mastery of the seven forms transcends Mace's.

Fated Xtasy wrote:More powerful? no, she should be in the top five or at the very least top Ten.
Seems legit. Agreed I have Mace>Depa, and I have Depa at like 5 or 6.

Fated Xtasy wrote:i feel like she's more or less equal to him in sabers
There I'd disagree with you.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Agreed, I can't wait for your response(don't feel obligated to rush and respond, take your time, respond when you can) Fated Xtasy LMAO at that pic btw.

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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:41 pm

\"Emperordmb" wrote:Mace not feeling the pain of the injury does not mean the injury wasn't detrimental to him. To the contrary, being stabbed through the abdomen and something tearing in his guts would be a huge detriment to his core strength/stability. Core strength/stability is tension in the abdominal area used for balanced movement and generating force, and it is a rather important part of martial arts. Basically, a lot of strength and force is reliant on the stability of that abdominal region, and Mace just got stabbed through the abdomen and had his guts tear inside of him. Then of course, there's still his rather messed up mentality in this fight, which I have already elaborated on being a huge part of Vaapad. So yes, I definitely don't think Mace was performing at his peak physical state or mental state there.

But he was being strengthened by his bond with Nick, i even provided the text were it states, that he stated weakening right when Nick fell. Neutral up until then, nothing states that he was hindered by the wound. in fact that match each other perfectly at the start of their duel.

"He brought his blade back up from the pit and turned his wrist on the forehand so that his recovery stroke took her in the temple with his lightsaber's butt. Her fingers slipped off the blade's activation plate and it shrank back down through his body. She howled and punched his eyesocket with her free hand, but Mace got his foot wedged between them and he shoved her away with a powerful thrust.

At the same instant both of them backflipped into the air, landing on their feet poised in perfect mirror images, their blades whipping in identically curving slashes almost too fast to see.

Blaster bolts howled around them. The air crackled with streaks and splatters of energy. Their blades flickered and whipped and no bolt touched their flesh.

Their eyes never left each other's.

Something had torn in his guts when he did the backflip. Smoke trickled upward from the hole in his belly. He could smell it, but he felt no pain. Not yet. His blade whirred through the air.

Hers whirred faster. She advanced.

The slashes never stopped. They would never stop. They flowed one into the next with liquid precision."
-- Star Wars: Shatterpoint

I'm not really sure how this quote helps your argument. Essentially, Windu felt Geptun's despair, then dropped his lightsaber and started dodging her strikes. I really don't see how this addresses Depa overpowering him in a duel

Essentially, that despair was enough to give mace an amp in order to dodge her assault and maneuver the battle so that he could get her to destroy the consoles. It was showing that he received an amped at the last moment and won because of that. Hell, mace was not even winning that fight, he barely survived.

That quote was referencing a mission in 32 BBY. From the onset of the Clone Wars (22 BBY) up until Revenge of the Sith (19 BBY), Windu is hyped as being second only to Yoda via out of universe sources. Furthermore, Dooku was known to best Mace in sparring matches during their time together as Jedi, but once Dooku becomes even more powerful as a Sith, he considers Mace a possible equal and Mace even drives him to a retreat on Boz Pity. Mace has clearly improved since then, and at the time of his peak has accolades superior to Depa's. While Depa's accolade is still impressive, it is not in comparison to Windu at his peak.

Again, the quote from Nick Gilliard, states that Windu as of AOTC is second to Yoda, this fight takes place a few months after AOTC. While Mace may have certainly improved, i'm not quite sure, that three years is a long enough time to make a difference between his peak and his time on Haruun Kal. It's not like he hadn't already mastered the seven forms.

The fight with the Akk guards started while Depa's blade was still stabbed through Windu's torso. And plus, you know, Windu had been stabbed through the torso and had a screwed up mentality.

What? No akk guard was dying during the first part of that fight, it was all clones :/

"Twenty-four troopers entered the bunker in a wedge around Colonel Geptun. Nick Rostu kept his back against the wall while he watched them die.

Akk Guards leaped over and past them, and with every leap another clone fell. The clones never stopped, never faltered, firing blaster carbines from the hip, forcing their way forward over the bodies of their comrades.

And it wasn't only clones who died."

Sora Bulq and Quinlan Vos aren't as fast as Kas'im. What exactly was the less than five seconds finish to that fight? Because we know Kas'im can let loose 15-20 strikes in a second.

He let loose 15-20 strikes per second on someone who was pushing him back during their initial engagement and had to resort to Jar'Kai to beat Bane(not un-impressive, it's just a fact) Billaba - unlke Bane at that time, is highly familiar with Jar'Kai. Depa and Mace have moved "too fast for anyone to see" and after that, she moved faster than him[Mace]

Mhmmm. Thank you for that actually. It illustrates an earlier point of mine in this response.

Which point?

By virtue of those quotes and that argument, neither is Depa. But that point you responded too was Mace and Kas'im's mastery of the other non-Vaapad forms. Windu has an accolade confirming his mastery of all seven forms. Kas'im also has a quote stating that he mastered all seven forms, however Kas'im's accolade also reveals that Kas'im has spent decades since then further perfecting every move of each form.

Which is impressive, yet, Mace had to master(and did) multiple forms to master Juyo and had to perfect juyo to create Vaapad and fully master Vaapad. Kas'im's mastery of the form may be great, But as i stated Before, Vaapad give her a significant advantage, just as Kas'im's knowledge of all forms would give him advantage. It balances out imo.

Were that the case, she wouldn't have been able to put up such a performance. I think it's very obvious that given the descriptions of her in that fight, namely "her eyes smoking with darkness", that she wasn't in that same fragile state when she fought Windu, be it by mentality, force bonds, death of peeps, or some other thing. This is something I'll have to look further into.

How can she not be in that fragile state? She wasn't amped till after Nick started to take out the Akk Guards. She was highly weakened both physically and mentally, yet she gave Mace hell.

And Depa had a connection to Vastor and the Akk guards. He was unable to utilize that fighting spirit without falling to the Dark Side though, so he didn't

Can you get me the quote for Depa and her bond with Vastor specifically? also, in the end he didn't need it, he drew on Geptuns despair.

Though Kas'im has never seen Vaapad before, given that Kas'im mastered Form VII's other variant and perfected every move and maneuver of it, I doubt it will be any more unfamiliar to him than the forms he possesses that Depa does not. And I'll reiterate that Kas'im's mastery of the seven forms transcends Mace's.

Like i said above, the form will give Billaba a advantage and Kas'ims own mastery of the seven forms will give him an advantage, it evens out. Also, Kas'ims mastery did not assist him against this lesser version of Bane(lesser as in not in his prime, i don't mean to lowball)

Seems legit. Agreed I have Mace>Depa, and I have Depa at like 5 or 6.

Yeah same here.

There I'd disagree with you

Then prove me wrong My droogie. I Win
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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:59 pm

Fated Xtasy wrote:
\"Emperordmb" wrote:Mace not feeling the pain of the injury does not mean the injury wasn't detrimental to him. To the contrary, being stabbed through the abdomen and something tearing in his guts would be a huge detriment to his core strength/stability. Core strength/stability is tension in the abdominal area used for balanced movement and generating force, and it is a rather important part of martial arts. Basically, a lot of strength and force is reliant on the stability of that abdominal region, and Mace just got stabbed through the abdomen and had his guts tear inside of him. Then of course, there's still his rather messed up mentality in this fight, which I have already elaborated on being a huge part of Vaapad. So yes, I definitely don't think Mace was performing at his peak physical state or mental state there.

But he was being strengthened by his bond with Nick, i even provided the text were it states, that he stated weakening right when Nick fell. Neutral up until then, nothing states that he was hindered by the wound. in fact that match each other perfectly at the start of their duel.

"He brought his blade back up from the pit and turned his wrist on the forehand so that his recovery stroke took her in the temple with his lightsaber's butt. Her fingers slipped off the blade's activation plate and it shrank back down through his body. She howled and punched his eyesocket with her free hand, but Mace got his foot wedged between them and he shoved her away with a powerful thrust.

At the same instant both of them backflipped into the air, landing on their feet poised in perfect mirror images, their blades whipping in identically curving slashes almost too fast to see.

Blaster bolts howled around them. The air crackled with streaks and splatters of energy. Their blades flickered and whipped and no bolt touched their flesh.

Their eyes never left each other's.

Something had torn in his guts when he did the backflip. Smoke trickled upward from the hole in his belly. He could smell it, but he felt no pain. Not yet. His blade whirred through the air.

Hers whirred faster. She advanced.

The slashes never stopped. They would never stop. They flowed one into the next with liquid precision."
-- Star Wars: Shatterpoint
The fact of the matter is that a person's core strength/stability comes from the interaction and movement of their abdominal muscles. If Windu has a hole through his abdomen and has something torn in his guts, then his muscles aren't going to be interacting properly, ergo his core strength/stability is solidly reduced. Then of course there is once again Windu's own messed up mentality. Just because Windu isn't feeling pain doesn't mean the wound is not a detriment. His muscles aren't going to behave as if they're still intact if they clearly aren't. Furthermore, Windu struggled with Depa's strength here, yet he capably contends with the strength of Grievous later on, whose "strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter." This means the Grievous's blows were at the very least as forceful as Depa Billaba's here, yet Mace contended with Grievous's blows, while Depa's strength was overpowering him. From this, one can only draw the conclusion that Mace was not in the best fighting shape at that point in time, which would make sense because of his mindset and injury.

As far as force bonds go, Depa was stated to have a force bond with Kar Vastor and each of the Akk guards, so if anything, Depa had more of a benefit from force bonds then Mace did.

In response to a different point I made, you suggested that Mace Windu was losing the whole way through the duel, but now you're saying he was matching her perfectly at the beginning. I'm definitely not accusing you of double standards or anything, if anything this was just an honest mistake or me just misunderstanding something. I'd just like to know your official stance on this so I can properly address it.

Fated Xtasy wrote:
I'm not really sure how this quote helps your argument. Essentially, Windu felt Geptun's despair, then dropped his lightsaber and started dodging her strikes. I really don't see how this addresses Depa overpowering him in a duel

Essentially, that despair was enough to give mace an amp in order to dodge her assault and maneuver the battle so that he could get her to destroy the consoles. It was showing that he received an amped at the last moment and won because of that. Hell, mace was not even winning that fight, he barely survived.
I was never arguing that Mace had the upper hand in that fight, merely that the circumstances were very disadvantageous for him. I don't really see how Mace being amped by Geptun's despair and dodging Depa's strikes addresses the lightsaber duel leading up to that point.

Fated Xtasy wrote:
That quote was referencing a mission in 32 BBY. From the onset of the Clone Wars (22 BBY) up until Revenge of the Sith (19 BBY), Windu is hyped as being second only to Yoda via out of universe sources. Furthermore, Dooku was known to best Mace in sparring matches during their time together as Jedi, but once Dooku becomes even more powerful as a Sith, he considers Mace a possible equal and Mace even drives him to a retreat on Boz Pity. Mace has clearly improved since then, and at the time of his peak has accolades superior to Depa's. While Depa's accolade is still impressive, it is not in comparison to Windu at his peak.

Again, the quote from Nick Gilliard, states that Windu as of AOTC is second to Yoda, this fight takes place a few months after AOTC. While Mace may have certainly improved, i'm not quite sure, that three years is a long enough time to make a difference between his peak and his time on Haruun Kal. It's not like he hadn't already mastered the seven forms.
I was referring to the Depa surpassing Mace's bladework accolade, which was referring to a mission in 32 BBY, while the onset of the Clone Wars where Mace is second only to Yoda is in 22 BBY.

Three years of actual combat/wartime experience could make a difference.

Fated Xtasy wrote:
The fight with the Akk guards started while Depa's blade was still stabbed through Windu's torso. And plus, you know, Windu had been stabbed through the torso and had a screwed up mentality.

What? No akk guard was dying during the first part of that fight, it was all clones :/

"Twenty-four troopers entered the bunker in a wedge around Colonel Geptun. Nick Rostu kept his back against the wall while he watched them die.

Akk Guards leaped over and past them, and with every leap another clone fell. The clones never stopped, never faltered, firing blaster carbines from the hip, forcing their way forward over the bodies of their comrades.

And it wasn't only clones who died."
The bolded part of that quote confirms the exact opposite of what you are asserting.

Fated Xtasy wrote:
Sora Bulq and Quinlan Vos aren't as fast as Kas'im. What exactly was the less than five seconds finish to that fight? Because we know Kas'im can let loose 15-20 strikes in a second.

He let loose 15-20 strikes per second on someone who was pushing him back during their initial engagement and had to resort to Jar'Kai to beat Bane(not un-impressive, it's just a fact) Billaba - unlke Bane at that time, is highly familiar with Jar'Kai. Depa and Mace have moved "too fast for anyone to see" and after that, she moved faster than him[Mace]
As far as the movement thing goes, the exact same could be said for Bane and Kas'im. Bane moved faster than a room of Sith apprentices could see, Kas'im whipped out that same speed, Bane fought faster than that, then Kas'im fought faster than Bane.

Depa's familiarity with Jar'kai does not change Kas'im's undeniable skill with it. Kas'im's skill with Jar'kai was still such that ancient wanking brotherhood hating Bane, or an omniscient narrator point of view considered Kas'im to possibly be the greatest duelist who ever lived.


Fated Xtasy wrote:
Mhmmm. Thank you for that actually. It illustrates an earlier point of mine in this response.

Which point?
The point addressing Windu's hype in the clone wars.

Fated Xtasy wrote:
By virtue of those quotes and that argument, neither is Depa. But that point you responded too was Mace and Kas'im's mastery of the other non-Vaapad forms. Windu has an accolade confirming his mastery of all seven forms. Kas'im also has a quote stating that he mastered all seven forms, however Kas'im's accolade also reveals that Kas'im has spent decades since then further perfecting every move of each form.

Which is impressive, yet, Mace had to master(and did) multiple forms to master Juyo and had to perfect juyo to create Vaapad and fully master Vaapad. Kas'im's mastery of the form may be great, But as i stated Before, Vaapad give her a significant advantage, just as Kas'im's knowledge of all forms would give him advantage. It balances out imo.
Depa's mastery of one form Kas'im doesn't have vs Kas'im's mastery of three forms Depa doesn't have (and this is throwing Depa a bone by assuming her skill in Niman and Soresu), plus the higher degree of mastery Kas'im has taken Niman and Soresu to than Depa has. This affords Kas'im a higher degree of unpredictability and versatility than Depa is afforded.

Fated Xtasy wrote:
Were that the case, she wouldn't have been able to put up such a performance. I think it's very obvious that given the descriptions of her in that fight, namely "her eyes smoking with darkness", that she wasn't in that same fragile state when she fought Windu, be it by mentality, force bonds, death of peeps, or some other thing. This is something I'll have to look further into.

How can she not be in that fragile state? She wasn't amped till after Nick started to take out the Akk Guards. She was highly weakened both physically and mentally, yet she gave Mace hell.
Her mental state of mind in that fight was not compromising her combative ability. She seemed to be more or less in a trance-like state, or some bloodlust where she was going all out against Mace. Mace's mindset on the other hand would've been a detriment to him because he had too much emotional turmoil, yet was avoiding the dark side, so he couldn't give into his darker emotions. Depa on the other hand has already fallen to the Dark Side at this point, so she is not hindered at all by her mindset. It is only when the fighting stops and Depa snaps out of that frame of mind that her mind kinda snaps.

As far as Depa's physical weakness, she seems on the whole much less frail when giving herself over to Vaapad than she is normally in Shatterpoint. Regardless, the Grievous quote proves that Windu was in a far more disadvantageous physical state than Depa during that fight, and also counters for the fact that Windu has coped with strikes "as forceful as any he ever had to counter" before, meaning that even a healthy Depa wasn't striking with more force than that which Mace has capably contended with.

Fated Xtasy wrote:
And Depa had a connection to Vastor and the Akk guards. He was unable to utilize that fighting spirit without falling to the Dark Side though, so he didn't

Can you get me the quote for Depa and her bond with Vastor specifically? also, in the end he didn't need it, he drew on Geptuns despair.
"Power roared around her, a rising storm of darkness. Mace got it now: as each Akk Guard died, his share of pelekotan backflowed through the bonds Vaster had forged among them. She was getting stronger."
Bonds confirmed. Not sure how Mace not needing his fighting spirit helps Depa.


Your defeat in this debate is not impossible, it it inevitable.


(BTW, I don't actually think I'm trashing you in this debate or anything. I think we're both making great points and arguments and such. Just posting these references/memes for the purpose of posting references/memes)


Last edited by Emperordmb on Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:59 pm

Emperordmb wrote:The fact of the matter is that a person's core strength/stability comes from the interaction and movement of their abdominal muscles. If Windu has a hole through his abdomen and has something torn in his guts, then his muscles aren't going to be interacting properly, ergo his core strength/stability is solidly reduced. Then of course there is once again Windu's own messed up mentality. Just because Windu isn't feeling pain doesn't mean the wound is not a detriment. His muscles aren't going to behave as if they're still intact if they clearly aren't. Furthermore, Windu struggled with Depa's strength here, yet he capably contends with the strength of Grievous later on, whose "strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter." This means the Grievous's blows were at the very least as forceful as Depa Billaba's here, yet Mace contended with Grievous's blows, while Depa's strength was overpowering him. From this, one can only draw the conclusion that Mace was not in the best fighting shape at that point in time, which would make sense because of his mindset and injury.

Yet billaba had been fighting for months- was - again, considered frail as hell. too, but I'll delve further into this in your other response.

As far as force bonds go, Depa was stated to have a force bond with Kar Vastor and each of the Akk guards, so if anything, Depa had more of a benefit from force bonds then Mace did.

She didn't have the amp at the beginning of their duel and Vastor himself did not "amplify" her power. Nothing in the book states this. Not to mention Mace himself was using Vaapad, which draws on both his and the darkness around him. The quote states that he would have to give himself over to Vaapad in order to beat Depa.



In response to a different point I made, you suggested that Mace Windu was losing the whole way through the duel, but now you're saying he was matching her perfectly at the beginning. I'm definitely not accusing you of double standards or anything, if anything this was just an honest mistake or me just misunderstanding something. I'd just like to know your official stance on this so I can properly address it.

No, Depa and Mace match each-other perfectly at the beginning, then during the middle part of their duel, Depa proceeds to force him on the defensive(before the amp from the Akk dogs) and then completely drives him back after the amp. In short, she matches him at the beginning, forces him on the defensive(without the amp) and then proceeds to nearly kill him with the Akk guard amp.

I was never arguing that Mace had the upper hand in that fight, merely that the circumstances were very disadvantageous for him. I don't really see how Mace being amped by Geptun's despair and dodging Depa's strikes addresses the lightsaber duel leading up to that point.

It gave him enough of an amp to survive the assault, before his receives the amp from Geptun, the text says he was breaking before Depa's relentless attacks.

I was referring to the Depa surpassing Mace's bladework accolade, which was referring to a mission in 32 BBY, while the onset of the Clone Wars where Mace is second only to Yoda is in 22 BBY.

Three years of actual combat/wartime experience could make a difference.

That's kind of a moot point, considering Mace himself considers her dangerous, Yoda does so as well and thinks that they should an entire Jedi strike team to apprehend her iirc. So regardless of the time frame from where that quote came from, she still remained a powerful duelist.

The bolded part of that quote confirms the exact opposite of what you are asserting.

at first glance, yes it does. But that text refers to what happened next which is Nick Rostu killing the Akk dogs which then provide Depa's amp:

"Then she was on him. His whole world turned to green fire.

Twenty-four troopers entered the bunker in a wedge around Colonel Geptun. Nick Rostu kept his back against the wall while he watched them die.

Akk Guards leaped over and past them, and with every leap another clone fell. The clones never stopped, never faltered, firing blaster carbines from the hip, forcing their way forward over the bodies of their comrades.

And it wasn't only clones who died.

The Force nudged Nick, and he swung a pistol and fired without thinking. A leaping Akk Guard whirled and the slug banged sparks off his shield, but in the instant his attention was diverted he fell against the muzzle of a trooper's DC-15 and blue energy exploded out his back.

This Akk Guard had been a man Nick knew, as he knew them all. This one's name had been Prouk. He'd liked to gamble, and he once lost sixty credits to Nick on a bet, and he'd paid it.

Another nudge from the Force and another shot took out the knee of an Akk Guard. He crumpled on top of a dying trooper, who still had enough life left in him to hold down the trigger of his carbine and blow the akk to rags.

This was the Guard whose nose Mace had broken. His name was Thaffal.

Nick was waiting for his next shot when a massive shadow rose up right in front of him; intent on the Force, Nick hadn't seen him coming. He said, "Whoops." This one's name was lolu. He had saved Nick's life during a fire-fight, once. A long time ago.

"Hello, Nick," lolu said, and drove his shield's sizzling edge toward Nick's neck.
--Star Wars: Shatterpoint

Also note that right after that scene, Mace realizes that Depa gets amped by the death of the Akk dogs.

As far as the movement thing goes, the exact same could be said for Bane and Kas'im. Bane moved faster than a room of Sith apprentices could see, Kas'im whipped out that same speed, Bane fought faster than that, then Kas'im fought faster than Bane.

And Depa moved faster than eye could follow, moved faster than Mace - a man who could dodge a blaster bolt pointed at him from merely a few inches away, matched the speed of Kar Vastor and moved faster than him and he beat Sora Bulq as well

Depa's familiarity with Jar'kai does not change Kas'im's undeniable skill with it. Kas'im's skill with Jar'kai was still such that ancient wanking brotherhood hating Bane, or an omniscient narrator point of view considered Kas'im to possibly be the greatest duelist who ever lived.

And Depa receives wank from Yoda and Mace, two of the most powerful Jedi of the order. It may not change anything, but Jar'Kai is in no way going to catch her off guard like it did Bane, that is a fact.

Depa's mastery of one form Kas'im doesn't have vs Kas'im's mastery of three forms Depa doesn't have (and this is throwing Depa a bone by assuming her skill in Niman and Soresu), plus the higher degree of mastery Kas'im has taken Niman and Soresu to than Depa has. This affords Kas'im a higher degree of unpredictability and versatility than Depa is afforded.

You forget that Bane - at that point in his life, was a practitioner of a single form, Djem So, Kas'im Mastery of all forms did not help against Bane proficieny in Djem So, in fact he was pushed back and only forced Bane on the defensive because of Jar'Kai. And hopefully this doesn't look like I'm lowballing Kas'im, but if he could only drive back someone who was inexperienced with Jar'Kai, what is he going to use against someone who is familiar with Jar'Kai and is using a form that Kas'im himself knows nothing about?

Her mental state of mind in that fight was not compromising her combative ability. She seemed to be more or less in a trance-like state, or some bloodlust where she was going all out against Mace. Mace's mindset on the other hand would've been a detriment to him because he had too much emotional turmoil, yet was avoiding the dark side, so he couldn't give into his darker emotions. Depa on the other hand has already fallen to the Dark Side at this point, so she is not hindered at all by her mindset. It is only when the fighting stops and Depa snaps out of that frame of mind that her mind kinda snaps.

Mace was also utilizing Vaapad during that fight btw, it would make sense that himself was somewhat amped by the darkness around him, obviously not to the degree that Depa was amped by the Akk dogs, but still. Also,

As far as Depa's physical weakness, she seems on the whole much less frail when giving herself over to Vaapad than she is normally in Shatterpoint. Regardless, the Grievous quote proves that Windu was in a far more disadvantageous physical state than Depa during that fight, and also counters for the fact that Windu has coped with strikes "as forceful as any he ever had to counter" before, meaning that even a healthy Depa wasn't striking with more force than that which Mace has capably contended with.

Dude, there are several quotes stating that she is heavily weakened, the book text states that she can barely walk, stand up and doesn't even eat anymore. not to mention she has been fighting for months. After every fight, Depa is noted to be extremely tired.

"Power roared around her, a rising storm of darkness. Mace got it now: as each Akk Guard died, his share of pelekotan backflowed through the bonds Vaster had forged among them. She was getting stronger."
Bonds confirmed. Not sure how Mace not needing his fighting spirit helps Depa.

He didn't need his fighting spirit AFTER he got the amp from Geptun's despair, he didn't need it because that would require for him to fall fully into Vaapad.

Sorry for the hastily typed response, Bantha was on and i really wanted to talk to him. Hopefully it makes senses. Surrender now, Dmb, you're defeat needn't be painful Whoa
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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:05 am

Fated Xtasy wrote:Yet billaba had been fighting for months- was - again, considered frail as hell. too, but I'll delve further into this in your other response.
Fated Xtasy wrote:Dude, there are several quotes stating that she is heavily weakened, the book text states that she can barely walk, stand up and doesn't even eat anymore. not to mention she has been fighting for months. After every fight, Depa is noted to be extremely tired.
Mace having a lightsaber stabbed through his gut and having a fucked up state of mind still puts him at a larger disadvantage than Depa. The Grievous example I provided earlier actually basically proves that Mace was in significantly worse shape than Depa in that fight. Depa’s description of being like that applies to her just about every time she’s in Shatterpoint except when “her eyes are smoking with Darkness.” She’s frail when she snaps out of that trance, but during the fight, there is no sign of this fragility.

Fated Xtasy wrote:She didn't have the amp at the beginning of their duel and Vastor himself did not "amplify" her power. Nothing in the book states this.
Does anything in the book outright say Mace’s force bond with Nick was amping him? Depa’s force bonds weren’t mentioned giving her strength until it talked about the Akk guards dying, just as Mace’s force bond wasn’t really stated until Mace collapsed when Nick died. It’s common sense that if Mace is receiving an amp from one force bond, Depa would be receiving an amp from several force bonds, particularly since Vastor was one of them. I’m not making the argument that she was super duper amped X10, but if you want to make the argument that Mace was amped by one force bond, the same can certainly be said for Depa with several force bonds.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Not to mention Mace himself was using Vaapad, which draws on both his and the darkness around him. The quote states that he would have to give himself over to Vaapad in order to beat Depa.
Fated Xtasy wrote:Mace was also utilizing Vaapad during that fight btw, it would make sense that himself was somewhat amped by the darkness around him, obviously not to the degree that Depa was amped by the Akk dogs, but still.
Mace’s ability to utilize Vaapad was compromised to an extent because of his emotional turmoil and fucked up mindset.

Fated Xtasy wrote:That's kind of a moot point, considering Mace himself considers her dangerous, Yoda does so as well and thinks that they should an entire Jedi strike team to apprehend her iirc. So regardless of the time frame from where that quote came from, she still remained a powerful duelist.
Oh she is no doubt a very skilled duelist. I’m merely countering the argument that Depa is more skilled than Mace, with several quotes and timeline logic that places Mace above every Jedi but Yoda during the Clone wars, while the accolade that one would use to claim “Depa is a greater duelist than Mace” was in fact a decade before the onset of the Clone Wars. So is she dangerous? Yes. Is she a powerful duelist? Yes. Is she very skilled? Yes. Is she more skilled than Mace? No, and that is the point I was countering.

Fated Xtasy wrote:at first glance, yes it does. But that text refers to what happened next which is Nick Rostu killing the Akk dogs which then provide Depa's amp
Mmm It’s entirely possible that scene and the first part of the fight happened concurrently, but I’m not too sure. I may concede this point, I may counter it, not really sure.

Fated Xtasy wrote:And Depa moved faster than eye could follow, moved faster than Mace - a man who could dodge a blaster bolt pointed at him from merely a few inches away, matched the speed of Kar Vastor and moved faster than him and he beat Sora Bulq as well
Johun Othone “moved faster than the eye could follow.” Kas’im is faster than two armed Grievous, who has thrown down with Mace in a duel before, and Mace was disadvantaged in that fight with Depa. An impressive feat for Depa to be sure, but nothing that puts her above Kas’im speed.

Fated Xtasy wrote:You forget that Bane - at that point in his life, was a practitioner of a single form, Djem So, Kas'im Mastery of all forms did not help against Bane proficieny in Djem So, in fact he was pushed back and only forced Bane on the defensive because of Jar'Kai. And hopefully this doesn't look like I'm lowballing Kas'im, but if he could only drive back someone who was inexperienced with Jar'Kai, what is he going to use against someone who is familiar with Jar'Kai and is using a form that Kas'im himself knows nothing about?
First of all, Jar’kai was clearly the greatest tool in Kas’im’s repertoire, given that he was holding it as his trump card, he fought faster with it, and after unveiling it was when he was described as possibly the greatest duelist of all time. It wasn’t a “Bane would’ve won if he knew Jar’kai” thing, it was a “well shit, Kas’im is possibly the greatest duelist of all!” kinda thing.

Secondly, Bane was able to respond to Kas’im’s tactics changes because of Bane’s own strategic and observational abilities. Bane specifically was familiar with and knew how to counter all of Kas’im’s moves (excluding Jar’kai). Bane also held great strategic and tactical abilities, even as an apprentice at the academy, and this was before studying the secrets of Revan’s holocron. Bane’s enormous command of the force also aided him in predicting Kas’im’s moves. Bane simply has a better set of abilities for countering Kas’im’s mastery of all seven forms than Depa does.

Thirdly, at the beginning of that fight, Kas’im’s offense was described as unstoppable, and Bane’s defense was described as impenetrable. And this was before either of them were fighting at their peaks in that fight. Bane’s offense was also described as a raging storm. Then of course, Kas’im is described as having transcended mastery with every form, and has the accolade of being perhaps the greatest duelist of all time. Bane’s amount of success against Kas’im is a feat for Bane, not a detriment for Kas’im, especially considering the great accolades both of them receive in that fight, and most especially Kas’im’s ultimate accolade he receives at the end.

And tying to both the second and third point in my response to this specific argument is the fact that Path of Destruction is the same book that talks about how knowing more sequences and moves makes it harder to anticipate one’s actions. Kas’im having mastered and perfected every move and sequence of every form would be an extremely difficult opponent to anticipate and respond to. This is more of a feat for Bane’s tactical abilities and precognition awarded to him by his enormous strength in the force, rather than a suggestion that any master of one form won’t have a problem with anticipating and responding to Kas’im’s mastery of every form.

But on the subject of versatility and response to one’s opponent, Kas’im’s skill set grants him a greater level of versatility, meaning that he is more adaptable than Depa. Kas’im has far more options both defensively and offensively. Both Kas’im and Depa are both strong enough offensive fighters and can handle being the aggressor, but Kas’im would fare far better on the defensive than Depa would. On the defense, Kas’im has a mastery of Soresu and has perfected every single one of its moves and maneuvers. The same could be said for Kas’im’s skill with any of the other forms, should Kas’im need them to counter and adapt to Depa’s offense. Depa really doesn’t have as much going for her suggesting that she’d be near as comfortable in a defensive role against Kas’im as Kas’im would be in a defensive role against her.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FhjevT8fQQ&t=30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FhjevT8fQQ&t=1m30s

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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:34 pm

Emperordmb wrote:Mace having a lightsaber stabbed through his gut and having a fucked up state of mind still puts him at a larger disadvantage than Depa. The Grievous example I provided earlier actually basically proves that Mace was in significantly worse shape than Depa in that fight. Depa’s description of being like that applies to her just about every time she’s in Shatterpoint except when “her eyes are smoking with Darkness.” She’s frail when she snaps out of that trance, but during the fight, there is no sign of this fragility.

So you're saying that, her no longer being able to walk, no longer eating, feeling frail in Mace's hands, trekking to jungle for months and having nightmares which lead to restless nights. Would have Absolutely No effect on her Physically and mentally? Alright, lets say in her trance she no longer feels that way, not eating+not sleeping+months of war would have a significant effect on her overall strength and health and you know this.

Does anything in the book outright say Mace’s force bond with Nick was amping him? Depa’s force bonds weren’t mentioned giving her strength until it talked about the Akk guards dying, just as Mace’s force bond wasn’t really stated until Mace collapsed when Nick died. It’s common sense that if Mace is receiving an amp from one force bond, Depa would be receiving an amp from several force bonds, particularly since Vastor was one of them. I’m not making the argument that she was super duper amped X10, but if you want to make the argument that Mace was amped by one force bond, the same can certainly be said for Depa with several force bonds.

Firstly, Mace uses their bond several times to communicate with Nick, take that for what you will - I myself only said that Nick was amping Mace during the Fight with Depa.

Secondly. He didn't die you derp, he's in the Jax Pavan books, Something broke their bond and Mace faltered.

Thirdly. The text says he forged bonds among them, nothing states she was bonded by Kar Vastor himself(Admittedly, I don't quite remember if there's text that states this, so if there is, provide it please)

Mace’s ability to utilize Vaapad was compromised to an extent because of his emotional turmoil and fucked up mindset.

That does not change the fact that the uses uses the darkness around them, I reiterate, he was most likely amped as well, but quite as much as Depa was.

Oh she is no doubt a very skilled duelist. I’m merely countering the argument that Depa is more skilled than Mace, with several quotes and timeline logic that places Mace above every Jedi but Yoda during the Clone wars, while the accolade that one would use to claim “Depa is a greater duelist than Mace” was in fact a decade before the onset of the Clone Wars. So is she dangerous? Yes. Is she a powerful duelist? Yes. Is she very skilled? Yes. Is she more skilled than Mace? No, and that is the point I was countering.

To quote Mace. "That.. Remains to be seen"

Mmm  It’s entirely possible that scene and the first part of the fight happened concurrently, but I’m not too sure. I may concede this point, I may counter it, not really sure.

I doubted it, after the scene it continues the duel between Depa and Mace. You should take a look at it for yourself.

Johun Othone “moved faster than the eye could follow.” Kas’im is faster than two armed Grievous, who has thrown down with Mace in a duel before, and Mace was disadvantaged in that fight with Depa. An impressive feat for Depa to be sure, but nothing that puts her above Kas’im speed.

Except that, the quote about her moving faster than eye could follow is open to interpretation, it could be Mace's eye or the narrator, we don't know.

first of all, Jar’kai was clearly the greatest tool in Kas’im’s repertoire, given that he was holding it as his trump card, he fought faster with it, and after unveiling it was when he was described as possibly the greatest duelist of all time. It wasn’t a “Bane would’ve won if he knew Jar’kai” thing, it was a “well shit, Kas’im is possibly the greatest duelist of all!” kinda thing.

That's not what wasn't my point, what I'm saying is, his jar'Kai will not lead to her downfall.

And Depa's mastery of Vaapad is also hyped:

Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat..
-- Star Wars Shatterpoint

That's not mace saying it, that's the Narrator. She - only with Vaapad, pressed Mace, something neither Vos nor Bulq did, two already skilled duelists. all this before the climax of the book.

Secondly, Bane was able to respond to Kas’im’s tactics changes because of Bane’s own strategic and observational abilities. Bane specifically was familiar with and knew how to counter all of Kas’im’s moves (excluding Jar’kai). Bane also held great strategic and tactical abilities, even as an apprentice at the academy, and this was before studying the secrets of Revan’s holocron. Bane’s enormous command of the force also aided him in predicting Kas’im’s moves. Bane simply has a better set of abilities for countering Kas’im’s mastery of all seven forms than Depa does.

That doesn't change the fact that his single use of Djem So was also a significant part in Kas'im downfall, though I will concede to the fact that Bane had several advantages over Kas'im that Depa doesn't have in this fight. However, Depa has the Advantage of Vaapad. and You forget that Kas'im also trained Bane, he too would be as familiar with Bane's style as Bane was with his own, the advantage of being familiar with Kas'ims style is a nullified, as Kas'im would logically know Bane's style. I reiterate. Jar Kai, will not make a big difference in this fight.

Thirdly, at the beginning of that fight, Kas’im’s offense was described as unstoppable, and Bane’s defense was described as impenetrable. And this was before either of them were fighting at their peaks in that fight. Bane’s offense was also described as a raging storm. Then of course, Kas’im is described as having transcended mastery with every form, and has the accolade of being perhaps the greatest duelist of all time. Bane’s amount of success against Kas’im is a feat for Bane, not a detriment for Kas’im, especially considering the great accolades both of them receive in that fight, and most especially Kas’im’s ultimate accolade he receives at the end.

Again, i'm not using it to lowball Kas'im, it's simply a fact that his mastery did not help him against Bane's single form, neither did his knowledge of Bane's own style As i stated above, Depa has been described as being unbeatable, being a raging green fire and moving as if she were a everywhere. she has great accolades as well.

And tying to both the second and third point in my response to this specific argument is the fact that Path of Destruction is the same book that talks about how knowing more sequences and moves makes it harder to anticipate one’s actions. Kas’im having mastered and perfected every move and sequence of every form would be an extremely difficult opponent to anticipate and respond to. This is more of a feat for Bane’s tactical abilities and precognition awarded to him by his enormous strength in the force, rather than a suggestion that any master of one form won’t have a problem with anticipating and responding to Kas’im’s mastery of every form.

They both knew one another's form in and out, no doubt that played a part in their battle. Also, he mastered every form, but which did he use in all of his fights? because he may be a master of them, but to the extent of which he could use them, we do not know.

But on the subject of versatility and response to one’s opponent, Kas’im’s skill set grants him a greater level of versatility, meaning that he is more adaptable than Depa. Kas’im has far more options both defensively and offensively. Both Kas’im and Depa are both strong enough offensive fighters and can handle being the aggressor, but Kas’im would fare far better on the defensive than Depa would. On the defense, Kas’im has a mastery of Soresu and has perfected every single one of its moves and maneuvers. The same could be said for Kas’im’s skill with any of the other forms, should Kas’im need them to counter and adapt to Depa’s offense. Depa really doesn’t have as much going for her suggesting that she’d be near as comfortable in a defensive role against Kas’im as Kas’im would be in a defensive role against her.

More Versatile? yeah sure, but Depa matched Windu's aggression and she broke through his defenses several times as well. This is a man who has not had his defense broken prior to this battle by anyone, Bulq nor Vos could break it. again, despite his mastery, his defense was broken by Bane, despite both of them being familiar with one anothers fighting style. Again, Depa's style is pure aggression and she - unlike Bane at the time, Was a master of Vaapad. I reiterate, Bane considered her dangerous, Yoda as well, She is considered unbeatable in personal combat and Yoda himself considers her a great and brilliant Warrior. This all means something. Depa is a dangerous foe, Vaapad gives her a significant age, she's drawing on both her own darkness and that of Kas'im, that will also give her an edge.
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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:11 pm

Fated Xtasy wrote:So you're saying that, her no longer being able to walk, no longer eating, feeling frail in Mace's hands, trekking to jungle for months and having nightmares which lead to restless nights. Would have Absolutely No effect on her Physically and mentally? Alright, lets say in her trance she no longer feels that way, not eating+not sleeping+months of war would have a significant effect on her overall strength and health and you know this.
Mentally? In that trance her mind was hardly holding her back. Physically? Sure I'll buy that. Mace being stabbed through the gut and having a fucked up mentality to draw on Vaapad with still places him at a greater disadvantage than Depa in that fight.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Firstly, Mace uses their bond several times to communicate with Nick, take that for what you will - I myself only said that Nick was amping Mace during the Fight with Depa. Something broke their bond and Mace faltered.
Rereading the passage, the quote also refers to it as "a trace of a force connection," with the definition of trace meaning small amount. With that in mind, I think it is more likely that Mace faltered from the psychological impact of his friend falling in battle.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Thirdly. The text says he forged bonds among them, nothing states she was bonded by Kar Vastor himself(Admittedly, I don't quite remember if there's text that states this, so if there is, provide it please)
Is it even possible to forge a bond you aren't a part of? You're the KOTOR 2 guy, you tell me. I always thought the implication of somebody forming a bond was that they were part of that bond. Though either way, being bonded to several Akk guards is clearly more than Nick.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Secondly. He didn't die you derp, he's in the Jax Pavan books,
Facepalm SHAAAAAAMMMMMMEEEEEEE Sad Sas

Fated Xtasy wrote:That does not change the fact that the uses uses the darkness around them, I reiterate, he was most likely amped as well, but quite as much as Depa was.
I'm not trying to argue that Mace wasn't drawing on the darkness at all. Much like my point relating to physicality, I'm not arguing that Mace was not advantaged/Depa was not disadvantaged, I'm merely arguing that Mace was in a worse position than Depa as far as circumstantial advantages and disadvantages go.

Fated Xtasy wrote:To quote Mace. "That.. Remains to be seen"
Depa has an accolade from Mace in 32 BBY suggesting her bladework surpassed his, and a circumstantial fight with her holding the advantag. Mace has two out of universe quotes as of the Clone Wars (22 BBY-19BBY) stating that he is second only to Yoda. In light of those two quotes, the Depa's accolade is chronologically outdated for proving Depa>Mace, and her fight with Mace being circumstantial, and thus lacking as solid proof that Depa>Mace. Now I'm not trying to lowball, I still find her fight with Mace incredibly impressive, just not proof that Depa>Mace.

Fated Xtasy wrote:I doubted it, after the scene it continues the duel between Depa and Mace. You should take a look at it for yourself.
Yeah okay fair enough.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Except that, the quote about her moving faster than eye could follow is open to interpretation, it could be Mace's eye or the narrator, we don't know.
So it's ambiguous?

Fated Xtasy wrote:That's not what wasn't my point, what I'm saying is, his jar'Kai will not lead to her downfall.

And Depa's mastery of Vaapad is also hyped:

Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat..
-- Star Wars Shatterpoint

That's not mace saying it, that's the Narrator. She - only with Vaapad, pressed Mace, something neither Vos nor Bulq did, two already skilled duelists. all this before the climax of the book.
I'm not arguing that some unfamiliarity with Jar'kai is going to be her downfall, I am arguing that Kas'im's raw talent with Jar'kai is going to be her downfall.

Fated Xtasy wrote:That doesn't change the fact that his single use of Djem So was also a significant part in Kas'im downfall, though I will concede to the fact that Bane had several advantages over Kas'im that Depa doesn't have in this fight. However, Depa has the Advantage of Vaapad. and You forget that Kas'im also trained Bane, he too would be as familiar with Bane's style as Bane was with his own, the advantage of being familiar with Kas'ims style is a nullified, as Kas'im would logically know Bane's style. I reiterate. Jar Kai, will not make a big difference in this fight.
That advantage is not nullified considering that it would be a larger advantage for Bane, given that Kas'im has a lot more versatility and moves to counter for via familiarity. Depa lacks the familiarity with this moveset, tactical and adaptability showings, and command of the force to counter this huge versatility Kas'im has. And I reiterate, I'm not arguing that some unfamiliarity with Jar'kai is going to be her downfall, I am arguing that Kas'im's raw talent with Jar'kai is going to be her downfall.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Again, i'm not using it to lowball Kas'im, it's simply a fact that his mastery did not help him against Bane's single form, neither did his knowledge of Bane's own style As i stated above, Depa has been described as being unbeatable, being a raging green fire and moving as if she were a everywhere. she has great accolades as well.
And it's also simply a fact that Bane had tools to combat this huge versatility, tools that Depa lacks. Actually, come to think of it, Bane was practically an expert on countering saberstaffs in combat, a weapon that gains a rather large advantage from an opponent's unfamiliarity with it, and as far as I know, Depa has never encountered a saberstaff before in her life. So if you want something that can potentially catch her off guard, I'd refer you to Kas'im's use of a saberstaff, as well as Kas'im's skill in several forms transcending mastery since Depa lacks the same tools Bane had to counter them.

Fated Xtasy wrote:They both knew one another's form in and out, no doubt that played a part in their battle. Also, he mastered every form, but which did he use in all of his fights? because he may be a master of them, but to the extent of which he could use them, we do not know.
Kas'im was switching forms and tactics in that fight, and the text stated that it was Bane's ability to anticipate and react to these changes (again tying back to the tools Bane had at his disposal for countering this versatility) that allowed him to seize the advantage. And to the extent of which he could use them, he mastered all of them then spent decades refining them and perfecting each and every move and sequence of them (more time than he had spent mastering them in the first place) until he had become the perfect weapon.

Fated Xtasy wrote:More Versatile? yeah sure, but Depa matched Windu's aggression and she broke through his defenses several times as well. This is a man who has not had his defense broken prior to this battle by anyone, Bulq nor Vos could break it. again, despite his mastery, his defense was broken by Bane, despite both of them being familiar with one anothers fighting style.
Mace was disadvantaged in his fight with Depa, more than Depa was anyway. Kas'im's defense was not actually broken. Bane was driving him back, but his defense held. The familiarity was a larger boon to Bane because there was more versatility in Kas'im's technique to counter for than there was in Bane's. Plus Bane also had the advantage of his enormous command in the force to predict Kas'im's moves. And again, given the massive amount of hype Kas'im receives in that fight, it's more of a really impressive feat for Bane than it is a detriment or insult to Kas'im's own ability. And with all of this, there is still no proof that she'd be able to handle herself in a defensive role against Kas'im.

Fated Xtasy wrote:I reiterate, Bane considered her dangerous
I didn't know he could see that far into the future TheSkilledOne

Fated Xtasy wrote:Again, Depa's style is pure aggression and she - unlike Bane at the time, Was a master of Vaapad. Depa is a dangerous foe, Vaapad gives her a significant age, she's drawing on both her own darkness and that of Kas'im, that will also give her an edge.
Drawing on the darkness will give her no more of an advantage than it did for any of her other showings.

Fated Xtasy wrote: I reiterate, Windu (fixed that for ya) considered her dangerous, Yoda as well, She is considered unbeatable in personal combat and Yoda himself considers her a great and brilliant Warrior. This all means something.
And I reiterate, Githany laughed in Kaan's face at the notion that anyone could match Kas'im's combative performance, an accolade made all the more impressive by the fact that Kaan seemed like the embodiment of the dark side to her, and the fact that she wasn't even close to being aware of the full extent of Kas'im's skills. Kaan also considers Kas'im the greatest duelist in the order whose loyalty he could not afford to lose, and after Kas'im's death, Kaan keeps his death a closely guarded secret because that news would devastate the rest of the order. Kas'im's offense was described as unstoppable, he was described as the perfect weapon, his skill in the seven forms of combat far transcends mastery, he was the greatest living swordsman when he was alive, and he was possibly the greatest duelist who had ever lived. This all means something as well.


Well now, it is time for us to make our closing arguments. I am looking forward to beating you.

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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:48 am

I'll start my closing argument later on tonight/tomorrow. I'm nearly finished with the Jedi Apprentice series and I have to go through the books once again just in case i missed something for Xanatos. I would start now but my PC is discharging atm. so wish me me luck Very Happy
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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:00 pm

And so begins my closing argument.

In this long ass response. I’ll be responding to several points that are going against me. So here we go.

Depa Billaba is an extremely skilled Lightsaber duelist. Her skills are stated by Mace Windu to have surpassed his own – now while he no doubt got better because of the war, this speaks volumes about Depa’s skill, for she surpassed Mace years before her prime  - keep in mind that during that Mission to Nar Shaddaa Mace moved incredibly fast. So, the fact that He considered her his superior in terms of lightsaber prowess at the time does say a hell of a lot. As Depa would like-wise have only gotten better because of the constant war and training of course.  And he even states that Depa only continued to grow in power with both Vaapad and in the force.


Kas’im’s mastery:

Kas’im is a powerful swordsman, a man who had perfected every lightsaber form and was considered the greatest swordsmen of the time – perhaps ever. He had mastered each and every single form to a great degree. This would give him an advantage due to the added versatility of the several lightsaber forms at his disposal. Aggression won’t work? Switch to the defensive and vice-versa.  I agree with this, however. Darth Bane – who at the time was a Practitioner of Djem So and Soresu, was able to push Kas’im back during their initial confrontation and despite his mastery of the seven traditional forms, Kas’im was being pushed back, his forms were completely pushed aside by Bane – a practitioner of two lightsaber forms at the time, which of course forced Kas’im to use Jar’Kai against Bane which surprised the Dark Lord and forced him on the defensive because of this.  While Impressive, Depa will not be surprised by Jar’Kai ,  she is stated to know all there is to know about Mace Windu’s style – Vaapad, however in the same book, Mace uses Jar’Kai, I believe we can rightly assume that Jar’Kai is not a weapon that will surprise her what-so-ever in this scenario. Her unquestionable mastery of Vaapad is stated by the omniscient narrator to make her “Virtually unbeatable in personal-combat” making her a incredibly powerful foe for anyone to face. Kas’im has the seven forms at his disposal, yet he was defeated by a practitioner of two lightsaber forms – despite both of them having the advantage of knowing one another’s form.  Now, here I wiil concede to the fact that the same could be said for Depa Billaba and Mace Windu, however , there is a very big difference that I myself have forgotten about. Depa –even before the amp she received from the Akk guards, had the Creator of Vaapad backpedaling and frantically parrying her strikes, given Mace’s intimate knowledge of Vaapad, he would know everything about Depa’s style – especially considering that he created it, yet his defense was no match for Depa’s mastery despite of this.  

So, let’s recap:

Bane and Kas’im new one another’s styles, yet Kas’im was no match for bane despite of this.

Depa and Mace also new one another’s forms, and before she was amped, Depa had Mace on the defensive – who was also using Vaapad and drawing on the darkness –albeit not as strongly as Depa was due to the akk guards.

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The Saber-staff:

So this one might be the death of me lol. But I’ve prepared an argument I think best explains why the Saber staff is not that much of an issue.

Firstly, let’s examine three individuals. One is a team and the other is a single Jedi council member.

Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi:

These two fought against Darth Maul – who was a user of the saber staff, Both Jinn and Obi-Wan were not at that huge of a disadvantage – with an emphasis placed on Jinn, who “carried” the majority of the duel , despite the fact that he never faced a duel-staff wielder before and at one point, he even had Maul on the defensive and uncertain. Again this is despite having no prior knowledge of the saber-staff

Adi Gallia:

Before I start, I’d just like to say that I find funny and odd that both Gallia and Jinn – two Jedi who worked closely in the Jedi Apprentice Novels, both died at the hands of duel-staff wielders and ironically enough, their killers were brothers,  I really think this a bit of a tribute to the Jedi Apprentice Novels and I really love it. On to the argument.

Adi was able to hold her own against Savage for a small period of time before succumbing to his superior strength, not his skill with the saber-staff – this is, again. Despite the fact that Adi never faced a duel-staff user, yet she – like Jinn, held her own against the Savage warrior (dat pun tho) for a while, with no prior knowledge of the saber staff.

Alright, what’s my point? My point is, these two, never saw or fought against saber-staff before, yet for the most part, they did well against their respective opponents.  Depa has not seen a double-staff; does that mean she’d get dispatched by someone like Bandon, Savage or Sirak? Would she get easily dispatched by Exar Kun or Maul because of this? Even though neither Vodo Bassk nor Jinn fell easily to them?

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My Verdict:

Depa will not be taken aback by A saber-staff or Jar’Kai, the unfamiliarity would perhaps grant Kas’im an edge, however, it would not be as significant as the edge that Kas’im had against Bane by using Jar’Kai . Depa’s ferocity and mastery of Vaapad match that of her Master’s own and have earned her the praise and fear of Mace and Yoda – both of whom considered her a “Brilliant Warrior” and “Dangerous”  this was regarding her skills as a Jedi. Her mastery of Vaapad is stated to transcend normal mastery – making her “virtually unbeatable” in combat because of this. Time and time again, she has showcased her prowess, forcing Mace to backpedal and frantically try to block her powerful blows, killing 24 people in under a minute and so forth, her force augmented strength led her to pound a mutated akk dog –which were considered to be giants(keep in mind that Normal akk dogs were the size of speeders), her speed caused her to move faster than the eye could perceive, being everywhere at once in a sparring match, killing twenty men in under a minute , creating an invisible weave with her lightsaber to block blaster fire, moving as if she were a green fire and appearing to be a lethal web of near invisible energy against Mace. Depa’s speed is irrefutable as is her strength. Her mastery of Vaapad earned her both fear and praise and a near victory against the second strongest Jedi master of the council.

She will not fall victim to Jar’Kai nor the Staff, she is a formidable foe and with Vaapad. She will defeat Kas’im in a glorious fight.

Simply put. Kas’im get’s rekt Razz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dQWAYuWanU#t=82
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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:05 pm

Why Mr. Xtasssyyyyy…



Well now, since Mr. Xtasy chooses to persist, I am compelled to stay, compelled to disagree. I am here because he is here. I am here to win what he thought he could win; this debate.


So, I shall begin my closing argument by addressing Depa and Kas’im’s performances in the defining duels of their careers, as this seems to be my opponent’s main argument as to why Depa Billaba would supposedly defeat Lord Kas’im.

Depa Billaba vs Mace Windu:
In Depa Billaba’s duel with Mace Windu, Depa initiated the duel by stabbing Windu through the gut with her lightsaber. Then the two broke out into a lightsaber duel, and Depa drove Mace on the defensive. As the Akk guards started dying, their darkness back flowed to Depa through the force bonds Kar Vastor had forged among them, amping Billaba to the point where she was driving Windu back excessively hard, and when Mace felt his friend collapse through the force, his fighting spirit left him. Then Mace dropped his weapon and dodged Depa’s strike, Depa snapped out of her trance, apologized, and attempted to commit suicide. I maintain that despite Depa holding the upper hand in this duel, Windu is a greater duelist than her, and her edge over him was a product largely of circumstance. While Depa was physically weakened from her time spent on Haruun Kal, Mace Windu was in even worse physical condition after having had a Lightsaber stabbed through the abdomen, to the point where the wound was smoking and he knew something inside of his guts had torn. This would’ve severely diminished Windu’s core strength and stability, which is generated from the abdominal muscles. Not only was Windu in worse physical condition than Depa was, but their mindsets also had a profound effect on the momentum of the fight. Depa was in a trance-like state, with her eyes smoking with darkness and her being heavily immersed in the darkness. Windu on the other hand, was placed at a distinct disadvantage in this fight as a result of his mindset. As I have pointed out several times by now, there are several instances in the text that reference Windu’s inner turmoil and emotional conflict. This fucked up mindset would greatly reduce Windu’s ability to wield Vaapad, as Vaapad is linked intimately with the wielder’s state of mind. Wind was actually struggling not to fall to the Dark Side as he fought Depa wielding Vaapad. Prior to Depa’s amp from the Akk Guards dying, the only advantage Depa seemed to have on him was her possessing greater speed and driving the offensive, however the greater speed was largely due to the extent at which Mace’s own physical abilities were diminished by his injury and mindset. Her pressing the offensive instead of Mace was also largely to do with the fact that Mace seemed to refuse to strike back at her.

“His own blade ignited-But he could not strike her. Even now. Not here, so close he could kiss her instead; not while her scream spiraled up into a shriek; not while he had to look into her wide staring eyes and see no hate or rage but only stark agony.”-Shatterpoint
“Green flame struck through his guard, and only a frantic jerk of his head turned what would have been a brain-burning thrust into a line of char along his cheekbone. Still he did not strike back.”-Shatterpoint

Depa was driving Mace back with her strength as if he were a child as she was growing increasingly stronger from the amp provided to her by the deaths of the Akk Guards, and this was as her amp was still increasing, not her amp at its highest. Despite the disparity in strength shown in this fight, this only demonstrates the extent of Mace’s physical disadvantage. In Windu’s fight with Grievous during the Battle of Coruscant, he regards the good General’s blows as being as forceful as any he ever had to parry, yet Mace was able to capably parry them nonetheless. This means that Grievous’s blows were just as forceful or more forceful than Depa’s blows at her most amped point in that fight, yet Depa’s strength was driving back Windu when Grievous’s equal or greater strength could not achieve the same. This unquestionably demonstrates a HUGE physical disparity between Mace as he is in his fight with Depa, and Mace when his mindset and body are not fucked up. Further demonstrating Mace’s superiority to Depa are the multiple accolades I provided in the debate stating Windu to be second only to Yoda, thus placing him above Depa.

Depa’s performance against Windu is no doubt very impressive and I’m not about to discount it as meaningless just because of circumstances. In fact because of that fight, I have Depa among the five most powerful Jedi in her era. Still though, the fight does not demonstrate Depa being Windu’s superior as a duelist, and in fact there is evidence to the contrary on that point.

Lord Kas’im vs Darth Bane:
A point of argument against Kas’im in, not only this debate but just about every time he’s brought up, is the fact that Bane drove him back prior to him switching to Jar’kai. The argument being made of course is that if Bane can do it, what’s to stop another great duelist from doing it, such as, as my opponent argues, Depa Billaba. This is a viewpoint held largely in error. First of all, one of the reasons Bane was able to adapt to Kas’im’s moves is because he was familiar with all of Kas’im’s moves (excluding Jar’kai), and thus could respond to them better. Of course the counterargument to that I have seen in this debate and other times Kas’im is brought up is that he two was familiar with Bane’s style, so it all evens out. The viewpoint that two opponents being familiar with each other’s style provides them both an equal advantage is also a viewpoint held in error. Obi-wan vs Anakin is a good example of this. Their knowledge of each other’s styles would’ve benefitted Obi-wan more, because Anakin’s mind was clouded by his anger, leaving Obi-wan the much more clear minded fighter, and allowing him to draw out the duel for much longer. Likewise, Bane’s familiarity with Kas’im’s style grants him a larger edge than Kas’im’s familiarity with Bane’s style because of the unpredictability inherent in their styles. POD makes mention that the more techniques one has at their disposal makes them more unpredictable, and as far as styles goes, the unpredictability Kas’im would get from possessing every move and sequence in the seven forms of lightsaber combat to Bane’s mastery of Djem So and Soresu means that Kas’im’s fighting style has a far greater variety in his techniques that needs to be solved for. Thus Kas’im’s unpredictability via the sheer number of forms and moves at his disposal is greater than Bane’s, and thus Bane’s familiarity with Kas’im’s style is solving for a much greater factor than Kas’im’s familiarity with Bane’s style would solve for. Also allowing Bane to anticipate Kas’im’s moves and changes in tactics was his enormous command of the force, which even while poisoned to the point of being barely able to speak was greater than anything the Huntress had seen as of her meeting with Serra, and this was right after the Huntress saw a sorceress completely devastate and corrupt Ambria with Sith sorcery and after seeing the Jedi Master Thon contain the dark energy to Lake Nath. One of the other reasons Bane was able to adapt to Kas’im’s changes in tactics was because of Bane’s own tactical abilities, which were demonstrated back in the Sith Academy, AND Bane has since then learned from Darth Revan’s holocron, who was a tactical genius. Another misconception that most people have is that Bane’s successful performance against Kas’im diminishes Kas’im when in fact it should actually be used for raising Bane rather than lowering Kas’im. The same fight that credits Kas’im’s offense as unstoppable, and credits Kas’im with being perhaps the greatest duelist ever is clearly not meant to showcase a lack of ability for Bane’s performance against him, but rather a tremendous accomplishment for Bane. Githany even regarded Kas’im and Bane as being laughably above Kaan, who she viewed as the embodiment of the Dark Side, and this was when she was unaware of either of their full capabilities.

Bane’s success against Kas’im is a feat for Bane, not a detriment to Kas’im, and just because Bane was able to drive him back doesn’t mean Depa would be able to do the same thing. Depa lacks Bane’s familiarity with all of Kas’im’s moves, Bane’s tactical capability, and Bane’s command of the force, all of these things being that which allowed Bane to counter Kas’im’s sheer versatility.

My Verdict
Kas’im has the accolade of being the greatest swordsman of his time, placing him above Raskta and POD Bane, and being possibly the greatest duelist of all time in a history that includes Tulak Hord (guy who soloed ridiculous numbers of Jedi at once, and receives a fuck-ton of hype as a duelist from Traya), Exar Kun (Greatest duelist of his time, credited by some as the inventor of the saberstaff), Lord Scourge (roughly on par with Surik as a duelist and an expert duelist before 300 years of improvement and hunting down Vitiate’s greatest enemies and having dark councilors shit their pants in fear of him), Emperor’s Wrath II (Scourge’s replacement who also killed several hyped up foes), Hero of Tython (Who defeated Scourge, and was regarded as the greatest warrior the Jedi had, including Satele Shan and her insanely impressive accolade from Eldon Ax), and Darth Malgus (one of the greatest warriors in the Sith empire even as an apprentice, bested Darach and Zallow before his prime). Compounding on this accolade is Kas’im’s skill in the seven forms of Lightsaber combat taken to a point that easily transcends mastery.

Depa Billaba mastered Vaapad (or Vaapad mastered her blah blah blah, I view that detail as being irrelevant to her combative prowess, even if it has severe holistic implications), and I’m willing to throw her a bone and suggest she has some proficiency in Soresu and Niman (and of course Juyo). Her duel with Mace is very impressive, and while I don’t view it as placing her above him as a duelist, it definitely earns her a spot in my top 5 Jedi of the Clone Wars era.

Ultimately though, I find Kas’im to be the more skilled duelist of the two, and I also believe his versatility grants him an edge over Depa. Both are impressive offensively, but Kas’im would definitely be more capable than Depa performing in a defensive role if he happened to wind up in that role, with such a broad versatility (including mastery of soresu and perfection of every single one of its moves and sequences). Depa would also not be able to counter the advantage Kas’im’s sheer versatility provides him with in the same way Bane did, given that Depa lacks Bane’s familiarity with Kas’im’s style, Bane’s command of the force, and Bane’s tactical ability. Also adding to the advantage Kas’im’s versatility grants him over Depa is Depa’s unfamiliarity with a saberstaff, which Bane had an insane familiarity with countering.

Kas’im’s hype is more impressive, Kas’im’s versatility allows him to perform significantly better on the defensive than Depa would, and Depa could not overcome Kas’im’s sheer versatility in the same way Bane did, especially considering her unfamiliarity with a saberstaff. For these reasons I declare Lord Kas’im, Blademaster of the Sith, the winner!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDSFTugAlf4&t=2m25s

Fated Xtasy, this has been an excellent debate, it was a pleasure debating with you, and I actually respect Depa a lot more after this debate. But Xtasy…



C-3PO C-3PO C-3PO C-3PO C-3PO

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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

Post by King Joker on Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:10 am

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Re: Depa Billaba (Fated Xtasy) vs. Kas'im (Emperordmb)

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