Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

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Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by King Joker on Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:32 am



The Sorceress versus the Count of Serenno. Two powerful Dark Lords fight to the death, no mercy. Fated Xtasy will be representing Count Dooku, and Emperordmb will be representing Darth Zannah. Old versus the new. Who will come out on top?

Battle takes place in this abandoned warehouse:

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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:24 pm

Xtasy sees my incoming post like:


The premise of my argument is simple. Dooku has no means of resisting Zannah’s sorcery, and she would almost certainly be able to use it.

First of all, there are numerous reasons why Dooku won’t be able to overcome Zannah’s spell of madness, which unabated would definitely spell his defeat.

Reason one, willpower. Both Zannah and Bane, the latter of whom was unaware of how powerful Zannah’s spells of madness had become, believed that Zannah’s spells posed a legitimate threat to Bane’s mind. In practice Bane overcame them, but far from easily, as prior to doing so, he was on his knees shrieking, screaming, and flailing his lightsaber wildly at the illusions. In all of Bane’s studies on Zannah’s spell (including the holocron of Freedon Nadd, the Holocron of Darth Revan, the holocron of Sorzus Syn, his library of Sith knowledge, and his own familiarity with psychic attacks), he learned that the only true defense was willpower. Many misconstrue this as a suggestion that anyone with respectable willpower can overcome her illusions, but it’s obviously very untrue seeing as her spells posed a threat to Bane, and seeing that Set Harth was instantly knocked into a three day coma by a casually casted watered down version of Zannah’s spell. Now Darth Bane has some of the most impressive showings of willpower in the entire mythos. Even at his lowest point of willpower, Bane shrugged off the telepathy of Lord Kaan with laughable ease, and Kaan has some very high tier telepathy feats, such as calling out to every Sith Lord in the Galaxy (A feat only replicated by Krayt briefly, Kun briefly, and Luke for a prolonged period of time though it was noticeably taxing for him), forcibly ripping the other Sith Lords’ minds out of Bane’s ritual, controlling over a thousand highly mentally trained Sith Lords at once, and even affecting a certain degree of control over Kopecz (one of these highly mentally trained Sith Lords who has demonstrated the strength of will to keep fighting even with a dozen arrows in the back of his neck and two spears skewered through his chest). At this relative low point of willpower while simultaneously struggling with psychic pain from the effects of the thought bomb, Bane also plunged his arm in the thought bomb for several seconds casually resisted the efforts of the spirits in the thought bomb to drag his mind into their prison (extremely brief contact with the thought bomb almost drove Darovit insane, and one of these spirits sent Kyle on some sort of spiritual/illusory journey a thousand years later). And this is all as of POD/Early ROT. As of ROT, Bane’s will has been hardened by working through living in constant agony from the orbalisks for a decade. At this point, he also managed to maintain unwavering focus and concentration and a constant stream of force energy for three days straight with no food or rest, while simultaneously resisting the efforts of the orbalisks to break his concentration (and he wasn’t receiving a force boost from the orbalisks at the time because he wasn’t channeling any of his energy through them). He also managed to stay conscious through the intensified storm of his own force lightning, and the orbalisks burrowing through his muscles and bones while expanding inside of him, though the pain of the orbalisks exploding knocked him unconscious. In Dynasty of Evil, his willpower is even greater, as he was able to not only cope with a pain far greater than one that knocked him unconscious in ROT, but he was able to work through it to perform a very complex and delicate ritual. Then of course in DOE, he also overpowered Darth Andeddu’s spirit in his holocron for several hours with unwavering focus while simultaneously performing an extremely complex task (Just for reference, Andeddu’s spirit in his holocron was powerful enough at that point to collapse hyperlanes). So yeah, Bane has some absolutely insane showings of willpower, and Zannah’s spell of madness posed a great challenge even to them. Thus to overcome Zannah’s illusions, one should at least have willpower remotely comparable to Bane’s, and Dooku, while no doubt a character of great willpower as one of Sheev’s apprentices, simply doesn’t compare in this category.

Reason two, the illusions intensify. Even at Zannah’s weakest state in ROT, her spell of madness grew more and more intense as time progressed, even without her continuing to reinforce the spell. This would certainly be compounded by her increased power as of DOE, and by her continuing to reinforce the spell as she did with Bane in their final duel. Given Dooku’s lesser willpower when compared with Bane, he certainly wouldn’t be able to overcome the illusions as quickly as Bane, which means they would propagate longer, which means he would undoubtedly face Zannah’s spell of madness at an even greater intensity than the one Bane faced them at, which makes the chances of Dooku actually overcoming the spell even slimmer.

Reason three, initial pain. The onset of Zannah’s spell is extremely painful, being described as a knife cutting the victim’s brain in half before exploding into a million burning shards in every direction through their brain. This extreme pain would make it harder for one to maintain their mental composure going into the illusory effect of Zannah’s spell, and though this pain wasn’t a problem for Bane, Bane has some extreme showings of pain resistance as already mentioned in reason one, which Dooku doesn’t possess. If anything, the description of the pain of Zannah’s spell sounds very similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YApFcIj-uEA&t=19m26s

Reason four, Dooku won’t know what’s coming. Unlike Bane, who was aware Zannah’s attack was going to happen right before it happened, Dooku would not have the same awareness, and thus would be caught more off guard by it.

Really the first reason is all I need to prove Dooku’s inability to overcome Zannah’s spell of madness, the other three are just extra icing on the cake (which can be a mango flavored cake if you want).

Then comes the question as to whether or not Zannah can defend herself in martial combat long enough to employ her spell of madness, to which I say absolutely.

Let’s consider Zannah’s defensive capabilities for a second. After falling to the ground in her final duel with Bane, she was able to repel his assault and escape out from under him and regain her footing, albeit with a broken rib, though just the fact that she was able to escape from under his onslaught at all is insanely impressive. Just for reference, a substantially weaker version of Bane drove Kas’im wielding a saberstaff into a desperate retreat, and Kas’im mastered Soresu and perfected all of its moves and sequences, so it’s clear Zannah’s talent with Soresu is very extensive. Now it’s clear that Dooku and Bane’s fighting styles are largely different, so it’s important to consider that for a second. Bane possesses greater speed and strength than Dooku, but also greater unpredictability and the usage of deception and redirection in combat, the latter of the two were ultimately the factors most responsible for Zannah retreating and tripping over the grave, so it’s not an offense he’s going to replicate, meaning if he overwhelms Zannah in martial combat it won’t be through physicality unpredictability or tactical deception.

What Dooku’s style does emphasize is footwork, precision, and minimalist movements. As stated in the Book of Sith however, Zannah’s style also emphasizes footwork and precision (the former being proven by her ability to advance on Bane while dodging bursts of lightning aimed at her feet, and the latter being proven by her ability to redirect strikes as powerful as those of BM amped Sarro, ROT Bane, and DOE Bane), and as stated in the DBT’s description of her application of Soresu, her style also emphasizes minimalism and the conservation of energy. Stylistically speaking, Zannah does not have a stylistic weakness to Dooku’s style that makes her particularly vulnerable to his methods of martial combat. Her speed, perception/reaction time, and method of keeping two blades twirling with constant momentum should actually serve as an excellent counter to Dooku’s skillful application of precision. Her speed and reaction time are both demonstrated by her repeatedly demonstrated ability to dodge lightning (an ability demonstrated to a lesser extent by Quinlan Vos in DD, who was Dooku’s superior in speed), first dodging several bursts of lightning aimed at her feet while advancing forward, then dodging a lightning bolt aimed at her head, then beginning to observe a lightning bolt after it had been fired off, following its trajectory, seeing where it would impact, grasping the implications of where it would impact, and throwing herself backwards all before the bolt actually impacted. With that kind of speed and reaction time and the defensive coverage and momentum provided by her blades, Zannah should be capable of perceiving Dooku’s attacks, meeting them, and redirecting them.

The one time Zannah demonstrated an inability to use her spell of madness was in her duel with Sarro Xaj on Tython, however there are several reasons why those same circumstances aren’t applicable here.
1. This was a decade before Zannah’s prime, and at her peak she demonstrated the ability and confidence to gather energy for and unleash her spell while facing Bane in martial combat.
2. Sarro Xaj bases himself in combat around physical domination and overpowering, attempting domination via strength speed and not letting up at any point. Dooku’s style is not built around physical domination, so he won’t strain Zannah physically in such a manner.
3. All Zannah needed to apply her illusions against Sarro was a break in the martial bout as brief as Sarro glancing in a different direction, and in just about every lightsaber duel with Dooku I can find, such a break exists at one or multiple points.
4. Zannah had no room to retreat. At the beginning of her 1v1 with Sarro, she was stuck in the corner of a room, preventing her from retreating to alleviate offensive pressure and free up her energy, and preventing her from leaping away from him to create a break in the martial bout.

In conclusion, Dooku can’t overcome Zannah’s spells of madness or prevent her from using them, so Zannah’s spells of madness spell Dooku’s defeat.


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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:03 am

This is what you two wanted me to so badly read?

This isn't anything i didn't expect, no, just as typical as ever.
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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:01 pm

You may have expected it, whether or not you can actually counter it is a different question. If you really think this isn't much of a challenge, then prove it.

I saw that there was a post, and I thought it was a serious response, but it really doesn't feel like you're taking me very seriously here Xtasy.

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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by King Joker on Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:00 pm

Fated Xtasy wrote:This is what you two wanted me to so badly read?

This isn't anything i didn't expect, no, just as typical as ever.
Should be easy for you to counter then. Swager
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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:24 am

Emperordmb wrote:You may have expected it, whether or not you can actually counter it is a different question. If you really think this isn't much of a challenge, then prove it.

I saw that there was a post, and I thought it was a serious response, but it really doesn't feel like you're taking me very seriously here Xtasy.

Let's just get this over with.

Dooku's main strength is his dueling mastery. His use of Makashi is unrivaled in the SW mythos, and his focus on the way of the blade has never had a serious detrimental affect on his talent in deflecting and attacking with the Force, unlike Jedi like Kenobi, Raskta Lsu and others. He has, bested, and stalemated, with the greatest of his era. All of whom are superior to Zannah as duelists.

But let's talk about your vanguard.

Dooku was attacked by Mother Talzin, yes, a powerful Night Mother who was on the planet of Dathomir, a planet which was able to re-energize Luke Skywalker and Tenel Ka Ch'ume Djo when they entered the Atmosphere, again, just the Atmosphere energized them. I'll let you piece it all together.

In anycase, Talzin needed to conduct a ritual attack the Count while on an, arguable as it may be, nexus. The fact that a peer of Lord Sidious required a ritual to fully attack the Dark Lord speaks volumes of the power that is required to topple Darth Tyranus with spells. And as we all know, Zannah is no peer to Sidious.


Reason two, the illusions intensify. Even at Zannah’s weakest state in ROT, her spell of madness grew more and more intense as time progressed, even without her continuing to reinforce the spell. This would certainly be compounded by her increased power as of DOE, and by her continuing to reinforce the spell as she did with Bane in their final duel.

You mean on Ambria? in DOT? where you yourself said was the only time Zannah/Bane used a nexus in the entire trilogy? ah yes, i'm sure she'll have those same advantages here.

Then comes the question as to whether or not Zannah can defend herself in martial combat long enough to employ her spell of madness, to which I say absolutely.



Let’s consider Zannah’s defensive capabilities for a second. After falling to the ground in her final duel with Bane, she was able to repel his assault and escape out from under him and regain her footing, albeit with a broken rib, though just the fact that she was able to escape from under his onslaught at all is insanely impressive. Just for reference, a substantially weaker version of Bane drove Kas’im wielding a saberstaff into a desperate retreat, and Kas’im mastered Soresu and perfected all of its moves and sequences, so it’s clear Zannah’s talent with Soresu is very extensive.

Right. Well I'd like to point out how Dooku so handedly defeated the likes of Sora Bulq, a character who perfected lightsaber techniques as well, and he bested Tholme as well. So he bested a master of Form 7, who had to master several other forms before learning Vaapad, and seeing as he perfected each form, one would assume that he had perfected Soresu as well, hm?

Now it’s clear that Dooku and Bane’s fighting styles are largely different, so it’s important to consider that for a second. Bane possesses greater speed and strength than Dooku, but also greater unpredictability and the usage of deception and redirection in combat, the latter of the two were ultimately the factors most responsible for Zannah retreating and tripping over the grave, so it’s not an offense he’s going to replicate, meaning if he overwhelms Zannah in martial combat it won’t be through physicality unpredictability or tactical deception.

Greater speed than Yoda? I highly doubt that, especially given how the Count so casually disarmed and bested Grievous during OCW(which is chronology right before ROTS mind you.) who's speed is extremely impressive, as you no doubt know. Not to mention, if we take the old comic at face value, he stalemated Mace Windu, and even disregarding that Dooku's still a peer to Windu, and a superior duelist to GG, whom has incredible strength.

Unpredictability isn't a factor when Dooku's handled Juyo/Vaapad users with ease and bested nearly every user of every form barring Shii-Cho. And i have several notes from Mace about how Vaapad is the most unpredictable of forms.

What Dooku’s style does emphasize is footwork, precision, and minimalist movements. As stated in the Book of Sith however, Zannah’s style also emphasizes footwork and precision (the former being proven by her ability to advance on Bane while dodging bursts of lightning aimed at her feet, and the latter being proven by her ability to redirect strikes as powerful as those of BM amped Sarro, ROT Bane, and DOE Bane), and as stated in the DBT’s description of her application of Soresu, her style also emphasizes minimalism and the conservation of energy. Stylistically speaking, Zannah does not have a stylistic weakness to Dooku’s style that makes her particularly vulnerable to his methods of martial combat. Her speed, perception/reaction time, and method of keeping two blades twirling with constant momentum should actually serve as an excellent counter to Dooku’s skillful application of precision. Her speed and reaction time are both demonstrated by her repeatedly demonstrated ability to dodge lightning (an ability demonstrated to a lesser extent by Quinlan Vos in DD, who was Dooku’s superior in speed), first dodging several bursts of lightning aimed at her feet while advancing forward, then dodging a lightning bolt aimed at her head, then beginning to observe a lightning bolt after it had been fired off, following its trajectory, seeing where it would impact, grasping the implications of where it would impact, and throwing herself backwards all before the bolt actually impacted. With that kind of speed and reaction time and the defensive coverage and momentum provided by her blades, Zannah should be capable of perceiving Dooku’s attacks, meeting them, and redirecting them.

1  -Maybe, but as i said, since Dooku was able to casually handle GG before the events of ROTS, i highly doubt she would do any better, perhaps delay him, but not by much.

Dooku's ability to fend off his fast protege, his young Acolyte, Ventress. He fended off grandmaster Yoda, the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin(before meeting his death at the hands of the young Jedi) even inferior opponents like Bulq, had contended with Mace before facing Dooku. Not to mention he held off the combined might of perhaps two of the fastest individuals in the Mythos, Annie and Obi.

So he'll have no trouble with her speed.


So why is he going to beat, the scary soresu witch?

He's not going to let up, Dooku's fast, agile, strong when he wants to be, and a duelist who is both graceful and brutal. As evident by his fight bulq and Obi, he'll attack with superior blade work, with great pressure that his opponent will be brought to their knees, and eventually, defeated, likely dead.

His ability to meet the whirlwind of destruction that is Yoda, speaks volumes, his enemies regarding him as a peer to their greatest more than speaks on behalf of his skills, his defeat of numerous, Powerful, Jedi shows that he's a versatile and powerful Sith Lord, more-so than likes of Zannah.

That's my retort, show me what you can do, before Zannah slips and falls into a ditch.
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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:35 am

Fated Xtasy wrote:Let's just get this over with.

Dooku's main strength is his dueling mastery. His use of Makashi is unrivaled in the SW mythos, and his focus on the way of the blade has never had a serious detrimental affect on his talent in deflecting and attacking with the Force, unlike Jedi like Kenobi, Raskta Lsu and others. He has, bested, and stalemated, with the greatest of his era. All of whom are superior to Zannah as duelists.
Bested and stalemated the greatest of his era, all of whom are superior to Zannah? Windu, Kenobi, and Skywalker are the only ones who he's stalemated or beaten who are superior to Zannah in lightsaber combat. And Zannah doesn't have to beat him in lightsaber combat, she merely has to hold out long enough to use her illusions... which she is definitely skilled enough to do.

Fated Xtasy wrote:But let's talk about your vanguard.

Dooku was attacked by Mother Talzin, yes, a powerful Night Mother who was on the planet of Dathomir, a planet which was able to re-energize Luke Skywalker and Tenel Ka Ch'ume Djo when they entered the Atmosphere, again, just the Atmosphere energized them. I'll let you piece it all together.

In anycase, Talzin needed to conduct a ritual attack the Count while on an, arguable as it may be, nexus. The fact that a peer of Lord Sidious required a ritual to fully attack the Dark Lord speaks volumes of the power that is required to topple Darth Tyranus with spells. And as we all know, Zannah is no peer to Sidious.
You mean she needed to conduct a ritual on Dathomir... to attack him physically from several lightyears away? That's a completely different attack from a completely different set of spells used at a much greater distance than Zannah needs to use them at. Not really comparable at all. Talzin was attacking Dooku's body from several lightyears away, and Zannah's attacking his mind from the same room he's in. She merely has to reach out and touch her mind as she did against Bane, who was much more well versed in her sorcery than Dooku is, braced himself for the attack, has a much stronger will than Dooku, and said there was no defense against it but willpower. Dooku's not shielding his mind from Zannah's sorcery simply because Talzin needed a voodoo ritual to attack his body from a completely different planet. Shit, if we're going by Talzin comparison, she straight up possessed his body while in a weakened state when they were in the same room as each other.

Fated Xtasy wrote:You mean on Ambria? in DOT? where you yourself said was the only time Zannah/Bane used a nexus in the entire trilogy? ah yes, i'm sure she'll have those same advantages here.
1. Actually they were shown to intensify when she used them on Serenno, which is not a nexus, a decade before DOE.
2. Zannah didn't start drawing on the nexus until her spell of madness failed and she went for the tendrils, and Bane never drew on the nexus in that fight, so the nexus argument doesn't hold any water if you're trying to disregard her feat against Bane. The time when Bane legitimately used a nexus was on Prakith when he generated the death field.

You also never countered my points about Dooku's willpower, his unfamiliarity with Zannah's sorcery, and the pain caused by the onset of her spell.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Right. Well I'd like to point out how Dooku so handedly defeated the likes of Sora Bulq, a character who perfected lightsaber techniques as well, and he bested Tholme as well. So he bested a master of Form 7, who had to master several other forms before learning Vaapad, and seeing as he perfected each form, one would assume that he had perfected Soresu as well, hm?
I thought he incapacitated Bulq with the Force, and Bulq's defensive capabilities are hardly on par with Zannah's regardless. The point I was making was that Zannah demonstrated a greater display of soresu than a man who mastered all of it's moves and sequences.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Greater speed than Yoda? I highly doubt that, especially given how the Count so casually disarmed and bested Grievous during OCW(which is chronology right before ROTS mind you.) who's speed is extremely impressive, as you no doubt know. Not to mention, if we take the old comic at face value, he stalemated Mace Windu, and even disregarding that Dooku's still a peer to Windu, and a superior duelist to GG, whom has incredible strength.
When did I mention Yoda? All I was pointing out was that given her performance against Bane, who is Dooku's physical superior, Dooku's not bringing any physicality to the table that Zannah's not prepared to deal with. Not his speed, nor his strength, nor his ability to take injury.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Unpredictability isn't a factor when Dooku's handled Juyo/Vaapad users with ease and bested nearly every user of every form barring Shii-Cho. And i have several notes from Mace about how Vaapad is the most unpredictable of forms.
Clearly you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not arguing Zannah's going to best Dooku through unpredictability, I'm arguing that Bane's unpredictability and tactical deception, which were key to him driving Zannah back, aren't things the Count is going to replicate against her.

Fated Xtasy wrote:1  -Maybe, but as i said, since Dooku was able to casually handle GG before the events of ROTS, i highly doubt she would do any better, perhaps delay him, but not by much.
Dooku himself admitted to being pressed in his sparring matches with GG. And all she needs to do is delay him.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Dooku's ability to fend off his fast protege, his young Acolyte, Ventress. He fended off grandmaster Yoda, the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin(before meeting his death at the hands of the young Jedi) even inferior opponents like Bulq, had contended with Mace before facing Dooku. Not to mention he held off the combined might of perhaps two of the fastest individuals in the Mythos, Annie and Obi.

So he'll have no trouble with her speed.
I'm not arguing he'll have trouble with her speed or even that she'll best him in martial combat. I'm merely arguing that her speed is an asset that will allow her to defend against Dooku long enough to use her spells of madness.

Fated Xtasy wrote:So why is he going to beat, the scary soresu witch?
He's not.

Fated Xtasy wrote:He's not going to let up, Dooku's fast, agile, strong when he wants to be, and a duelist who is both graceful and brutal. As evident by his fight bulq and Obi, he'll attack with superior blade work, with great pressure that his opponent will be brought to their knees, and eventually, defeated, likely dead.
Not going to let up? That's not really how Dooku fights, as in just about every duel I can find for him there's at least one, though often more than one, pause in the melee as long as the one that allowed Zannah to use her sorcery against Sarro, and even then she could easily create a break in the combat that long herself by flipping several meters backwards which she has room to do here. Not that it matters because Zannah demonstrated the ability to gather energy for and use her illusions while dueling Bane, and has room to retreat here to alleviate offensive pressure.

Fated Xtasy wrote:His ability to meet the whirlwind of destruction that is Yoda, speaks volumes, his enemies regarding him as a peer to their greatest more than speaks on behalf of his skills, his defeat of numerous, Powerful, Jedi shows that he's a versatile and powerful Sith Lord, more-so than likes of Zannah.
Zannah's ability to pose a threat to the being of much greater willpower than Dooku that is Bane, speaks volumes, and is thus not something Dooku could overcome. Dooku is of course the superior martial combatant, but Zannah has also demonstrated that while exhausted before her prime she could use her illusions when provided with the briefest of pauses, ones shown to occur in almost every duel Dooku takes part in. She also at her peak demonstrated that she can use her sorcery while simultaneously engaging Bane in lightsaber combat. And her ability to hold her own as long as she did against Bane in martial combat, and her ability to escape out from under Bane after falling, demonstrates that she can indeed last long enough against Dooku in martial combat to either get that very brief opening, or simply use her sorcery while dueling him, and once that happens there is nothing Dooku can do to defend against her sorcery or overcome it.


Fated Xtasy wrote:That's my retort, show me what you can do, before Zannah slips and falls into a ditch.
Dooku is the one who will be falling in this fight.

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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:49 am

This is going to be Massive, thanks to my oh so kind and gracious opponent, now onto the argument, or rather the lack of argument i've come up for Dooku's willpower, the one that so kindly got me ridiculed.


Reason one, willpower. Both Zannah and Bane, the latter of whom was unaware of how powerful Zannah’s spells of madness had become, believed that Zannah’s spells posed a legitimate threat to Bane’s mind. In practice Bane overcame them, but far from easily, as prior to doing so, he was on his knees shrieking, screaming, and flailing his lightsaber wildly at the illusions. In all of Bane’s studies on Zannah’s spell (including the holocron of Freedon Nadd, the Holocron of Darth Revan, the holocron of Sorzus Syn, his library of Sith knowledge, and his own familiarity with psychic attacks), he learned that the only true defense was willpower.

Willpower? hmm ok, let's do this.


Many misconstrue this as a suggestion that anyone with respectable willpower can overcome her illusions, but it’s obviously very untrue seeing as her spells posed a threat to Bane, and seeing that Set Harth was instantly knocked into a three day coma by a casually casted watered down version of Zannah’s spell.

Yes, Set Harth, regarded as a powerful Jedi in the Dark Side sourcebook, left while still a Padawan, right? Where as Dooku is regarded as a highly skilled duelist and extremely powerful Jedi Master.

Do you honestly think Bane would fall to this watered down version of Zannah's spell? a spell that destroyed a Padawan/DS Jedi?

He's never stated to have become a Jedi Knight or anything of the sort. I doubt Dooku, a acclaimed master of the force, would fall prey to even this spell.

Now Darth Bane has some of the most impressive showings of willpower in the entire mythos. Even at his lowest point of willpower, Bane shrugged off the telepathy of Lord Kaan with laughable ease, and Kaan has some very high tier telepathy feats, such as calling out to every Sith Lord in the Galaxy (A feat only replicated by Krayt briefly, Kun briefly, and Luke for a prolonged period of time though it was noticeably taxing for him), forcibly ripping the other Sith Lords’ minds out of Bane’s ritual, controlling over a thousand highly mentally trained Sith Lords at once, and even affecting a certain degree of control over Kopecz (one of these highly mentally trained Sith Lords who has demonstrated the strength of will to keep fighting even with a dozen arrows in the back of his neck and two spears skewered through his chest). At this relative low point of willpower while simultaneously struggling with psychic pain from the effects of the thought bomb, Bane also plunged his arm in the thought bomb for several seconds casually resisted the efforts of the spirits in the thought bomb to drag his mind into their prison (extremely brief contact with the thought bomb almost drove Darovit insane,and one of these spirits sent Kyle on some sort of spiritual/illusory journey a thousand years later). And this is all as of POD/Early ROT. As of ROT, Bane’s will has been hardened by working through living in constant agony from the orbalisks for a decade. At this point, he also managed to maintain unwavering focus and concentration and a constant stream of force energy for three days straight with no food or rest, while simultaneously resisting the efforts of the orbalisks to break his concentration (and he wasn’t receiving a force boost from the orbalisks at the time because he wasn’t channeling any of his energy through them). He also managed to stay conscious through the intensified storm of his own force lightning, and the orbalisks burrowing through his muscles and bones while expanding inside of him, though the pain of the orbalisks exploding knocked him unconscious. In Dynasty of Evil, his willpower is even greater, as he was able to not only cope with a pain far greater than one that knocked him unconscious in ROT, but he was able to work through it to perform a very complex and delicate ritual. Then of course in DOE, he also overpowered Darth Andeddu’s spirit in his holocron for several hours with unwavering focus while simultaneously performing an extremely complex task (Just for reference, Andeddu’s spirit in his holocron was powerful enough at that point to collapse hyperlanes). So yeah, Bane has some absolutely insane showings of willpower, and Zannah’s spell of madness posed a great challenge even to them. Thus to overcome Zannah’s illusions, one should at least have willpower remotely comparable to Bane’s, and Dooku, while no doubt a character of great willpower as one of Sheev’s apprentices, simply doesn’t compare in this category.

Is that so? I am reminded of a moment, a moment in time where, Dooku's life was siphoned to restore an entity, an entity that would need every inch of his life force to become whole again.

In Son of Dathomir, Dookus drained of his very life force to bring about the Resurrection of Mother Talzin. Dooku's body was then possessed by her, and was struck with a force of power stronger than Bane, Darth Sidious' Force Lightning.

Due to comment made by Maul and several nightbrothers, Talzin would be whole again once she drained someone of their life, a "great sacrifice", Talzin evidently succeeded as she herself(after being defeated in a brief clash with Sidious using Dooku's body) she states "I am whole" thus confirming that she drained Dooku of his life force, yet through sheer will and determination, Dooku, after being hit with the power of his master, and after being drained, got up, and joined his master against Talzin.

Something clearly above Bane's league.

If you disregard this as something that isn't remotely comparable to-if not above, Bane, then i really suggestive we stop this debate.

Reason two, the illusions intensify. Even at Zannah’s weakest state in ROT, her spell of madness grew more and more intense as time progressed, even without her continuing to reinforce the spell. This would certainly be compounded by her increased power as of DOE, and by her continuing to reinforce the spell as she did with Bane in their final duel. Given Dooku’s lesser willpower when compared with Bane, he certainly wouldn’t be able to overcome the illusions as quickly as Bane, which means they would propagate longer, which means he would undoubtedly face Zannah’s spell of madness at an even greater intensity than the one Bane faced them at, which makes the chances of Dooku actually overcoming the spell even slimmer.

Except there isn't such a gap that Dooku would be so easily overcome by her spells. Consider the following;

Dooku has studied several holocrons, and later went on to study the Dark Holocron, a holocron containing 100,000 years worth of Sith knowledge. As stated in New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology.

This coupled with Yoda, a Jedi near 800 years old, regards him as the order's most powerful student, and one of the most learned in the force makes his knowledge of the force, quite vast.

Yes, it one's knowledge of the Force would be vast when his knowledge of it is considered unrivaled,and when he is considered one most powerful Jedi in the order's 2500 year history, and was thought to be one of the force's most powerful practitioner. What's more, as a Sith, he's said to be even stronger.


Reason three, initial pain. The onset of Zannah’s spell is extremely painful, being described as a knife cutting the victim’s brain in half before exploding into a million burning shards in every direction through their brain. This extreme pain would make it harder for one to maintain their mental composure going into the illusory effect of Zannah’s spell, and though this pain wasn’t a problem for Bane, Bane has some extreme showings of pain resistance as already mentioned in reason one, which Dooku doesn’t possess. If anything, the description of the pain of Zannah’s spell sounds very similar to this:

Except he does, as i have proven.

Dooku is an analytical fighter, he completely recognizes each and every one of GG's flaws in battle, and those of his Guards, as well as their tactics. He's able to immediately recognizes Vos' form in old EU, and immediately recognizes the djem so and soresu forms of Obi and Anakin.

This coupled with how Dooku's knowledge of the force, the fact that he went through the trials of spirit and insight, trials meant to test a Jedi's resistance against someone like Zannah's ilk's spells, showcases that he would be able to recognize and adjust his tactics against Zannah.


This familiarity against this kind of attack, and knowledge of spells like reanimate dead( a power he has shown in the past in Jedi Quest and taught to Ventress since she didn't use the talisman required) and the ritual with Sidious, shows that Dooku is more than well versed against Zannah, almost intimately, i would say.

Reason four, Dooku won’t know what’s coming. Unlike Bane, who was aware Zannah’s attack was going to happen right before it happened, Dooku would not have the same awareness, and thus would be caught more off guard by it.

Let the fun begin then.

Dooku's knowledge of the force is vast, unrivaled, and increidble. He has knowledge of spells like Reanimate dead, which he taught to Ventress. In fact, Ventress using Reanimate dead through a spell add much more significance to the following quote.
-------------
"Make me your apprentice! Teach me the ways of the Sith!"
"Have I not taught you many secrets, Asajj?"
"Scraps. Little devices. Lesser arts. Not nearly what you would if I were your apprentice sworn in blood, I know."
—Dark Rendezvous

------------

The fact that to Dooku, this ability, is considered scraps and lesser arts shows that he has much more incredible knowledge up his sleeve, this, obviously supported by his immeasurable knowledge of the force and study, makes him very lethal.

For Tyranus knows of Zannah on account of his lineage, he knows her because he gave the book of sith to Quinlan—knows too, of her spells, her defense, of her spells all because of his study of the Book, and rest assured that this study, like all others, was and is, extensive.

Really the first reason is all I need to prove Dooku’s inability to overcome Zannah’s spell of madness, the other three are just extra icing on the cake (which can be a mango flavored cake if you want).

Lets see what you can mount then.

Bested and stalemated the greatest of his era, all of whom are superior to Zannah? Windu, Kenobi, and Skywalker are the only ones who he's stalemated or beaten who are superior to Zannah in lightsaber combat. And Zannah doesn't have to beat him in lightsaber combat, she merely has to hold out long enough to use her illusions... which she is definitely skilled enough to do.
She doesn't have to beat him, but she certainly has to give all she has into her defense if she intend to survive. Zannah's defense is not unlike Grevious' fighting style, her simplistic spin is something Grievous has replicated in the past, and he has done so in a much faster(twenty strikes per second) way. Dooku would have a rather easy time going about pressing and ultimately destroying her defenses.

Remember, Dooku trained Grievous, everything the cyborg knew of the forms he learned from Dooku, the beast, the monster that he became near the end of the war was by virtue of Dooku's teachings.

And this Cyborg was - as per usual - bested by the Count, hard pressed sure, but if the teacher was hard pressed - at times - then what fate would await Zannah? even Kenobi, Mace, and Maul had difficulty facing Grievous.

You mean she needed to conduct a ritual on Dathomir... to attack him physically from several lightyears away? That's a completely different attack from a completely different set of spells used at a much greater distance than Zannah needs to use them at. Not really comparable at all. Talzin was attacking Dooku's body from several lightyears away, and Zannah's attacking his mind from the same room he's in. She merely has to reach out and touch her mind as she did against Bane, who was much more well versed in her sorcery than Dooku is, braced himself for the attack, has a much stronger will than Dooku, and said there was no defense against it but willpower. Dooku's not shielding his mind from Zannah's sorcery simply because Talzin needed a voodoo ritual to attack his body from a completely different planet. Shit, if we're going by Talzin comparison, she straight up possessed his body while in a weakened state when they were in the same room as each other.

Right, you're right of course.

Dooku was dealing with an unknown, a peer to Sidious, and he obviously didn't expect the attack - he couldn't see the attack -.he would be quite vulnerable to Sidious' equal. Unlike with Zannah, he knows her quite well, and has a target in front of him, that he can analyze, that he can attack, defend against and destroy.

But i love how you use that part of the comic where Dooku is attacked by a formless entity out of nowhere and with absolutely no means to defend himself. Nice.

1. Actually they were shown to intensify when she used them on Serenno, which is not a nexus, a decade before DOE.
2. Zannah didn't start drawing on the nexus until her spell of madness failed and she went for the tendrils, and Bane never drew on the nexus in that fight, so the nexus argument doesn't hold any water if you're trying to disregard her feat against Bane. The time when Bane legitimately used a nexus was on Prakith when he generated the death field.

You also never countered my points about Dooku's willpower, his unfamiliarity with Zannah's sorcery, and the pain caused by the onset of her spell.

Consider this countered.

I thought he incapacitated Bulq with the Force, and Bulq's defensive capabilities are hardly on par with Zannah's regardless. The point I was making was that Zannah demonstrated a greater display of soresu than a man who mastered all of it's moves and sequences.

This is ... odd. Coming for someone who considered's Kas'im extremely powerful and talented and uses him to wank Bane? these are pretty surprising double standards.

When did I mention Yoda? All I was pointing out was that given her performance against Bane, who is Dooku's physical superior, Dooku's not bringing any physicality to the table that Zannah's not prepared to deal with. Not his speed, nor his strength, nor his ability to take injury.

Is that so? We'll see.

Dooku has bested Grievous with extreme casualness in OCW, and has bested him several times afterwards, he is regarded as his superior even during rots. He has easily disarmed Sora Bulq and simultaneously dueled Tholme. He's proved his status as a peer to Windu my stalemating the Harunn Kal native on Boz Pity. He's dueled the duo of Obi-Wan and Skywalker.

His feat of being Grievous' superior alone places him above Zannah in strength and speed. the others are, as you said, icing on the cake. (which can have weed scented candles if you like.)

What you fail to recognize, is that Zannah herself isn't bringing anything that Dooku doesn't already know, as i have already proven.


Clearly you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not arguing Zannah's going to best Dooku through unpredictability, I'm arguing that Bane's unpredictability and tactical deception, which were key to him driving Zannah back, aren't things the Count is going to replicate against her.

Yes. For Dooku has other things, such as an intimate knowledge of all forms which he passed down to Ventress and Grievous, both of whom he was superior to even when they were in their primes. Grievous was unpredictable and unorthodox to several Jedi, yet like always Dooku bested him. Mace and Sora were both highly unpredictable and fast by virtue of Vaapad, yet Dooku easily disarmed Sora, and Mace was hard pressed against Dooku.

He also has knowledge of her.

Dooku himself admitted to being pressed in his sparring matches with GG. And all she needs to do is delay him.

"at times" not always. And delay him? i doubt she could achieve that.

I'm not arguing he'll have trouble with her speed or even that she'll best him in martial combat. I'm merely arguing that her speed is an asset that will allow her to defend against Dooku long enough to use her spells of madness.

Yes, an asset that lose is value when Dooku has considerably more impressive speed, and the willpower and skill to defend against it.

Not going to let up? That's not really how Dooku fights, as in just about every duel I can find for him there's at least one, though often more than one, pause in the melee as long as the one that allowed Zannah to use her sorcery against Sarro, and even then she could easily create a break in the combat that long herself by flipping several meters backwards which she has room to do here. Not that it matters because Zannah demonstrated the ability to gather energy for and use her illusions while dueling Bane, and has room to retreat here to alleviate offensive pressure.

You're comparing Dooku? a vastly superior duelist to Sarro? The scenario here will be different, Dooku knows all about Zannah, and he has showcased an ability to fight without pause in the last season fight and that's due to the Jedi wanting to bring him in for questioning. In his fight against Savage and Asajj, he fought a prolonged battle without pause, and that's due to his superior strength in the dark side. He well fell her.

Zannah's ability to pose a threat to the being of much greater willpower than Dooku that is Bane, speaks volumes, and is thus not something Dooku could overcome. Dooku is of course the superior martial combatant, but Zannah has also demonstrated that while exhausted before her prime she could use her illusions when provided with the briefest of pauses, ones shown to occur in almost every duel Dooku takes part in. She also at her peak demonstrated that she can use her sorcery while simultaneously engaging Bane in lightsaber combat. And her ability to hold her own as long as she did against Bane in martial combat, and her ability to escape out from under Bane after falling, demonstrates that she can indeed last long enough against Dooku in martial combat to either get that very brief opening, or simply use her sorcery while dueling him, and once that happens there is nothing Dooku can do to defend against her sorcery or overcome it.

Dooku is of equal caliber in terms of willpower, i have already stated this and you cannot deny it. His willpower will allow him overcome Zannah's illusion, as will his knowledge of the force, proficiency in defending against them, and his knowledge of Zannah's tactics. Dooku will overwhelm her defenses, he has the skill - the knowledge of all forms -  to do, he will see every flaw in her simplistic fighting style, and he will seize every opportunity to strike at it.

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Fated Xtasy
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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:00 pm

Fated Xtasy wrote:This is going to be Massive, thanks to my oh so kind and gracious opponent, now onto the argument, or rather the lack of argument i've come up for Dooku's willpower, the one that so kindly got me ridiculed.
This oh so gracious opponent wants to have a serious conversation with you after all we've been through.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Yes, Set Harth, regarded as a powerful Jedi in the Dark Side sourcebook, left while still a Padawan, right? Where as Dooku is regarded as a highly skilled duelist and extremely powerful Jedi Master.

Do you honestly think Bane would fall to this watered down version of Zannah's spell? a spell that destroyed a Padawan/DS Jedi?

He's never stated to have become a Jedi Knight or anything of the sort. I doubt Dooku, a acclaimed master of the force, would fall prey to even this spell.
Do I think Bane or Dooku would fall prey to her watered down spell? Definitely not. That's just proof that not anyone with decent willpower can resist Zannah's spells. Really more of a counter to the idiotic masses in general than to you, who are already more than aware of this fact.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Is that so? I am reminded of a moment, a moment in time where, Dooku's life was siphoned to restore an entity, an entity that would need every inch of his life force to become whole again.

In Son of Dathomir, Dookus drained of his very life force to bring about the Resurrection of Mother Talzin. Dooku's body was then possessed by her, and was struck with a force of power stronger than Bane, Darth Sidious' Force Lightning.

Due to comment made by Maul and several nightbrothers, Talzin would be whole again once she drained someone of their life, a "great sacrifice", Talzin evidently succeeded as she herself(after being defeated in a brief clash with Sidious using Dooku's body) she states "I am whole" thus confirming that she drained Dooku of his life force, yet through sheer will and determination, Dooku, after being hit with the power of his master, and after being drained, got up, and joined his master against Talzin.

Something clearly above Bane's league.

If you disregard this as something that isn't remotely comparable to-if not above, Bane, then i really suggestive we stop this debate.
Clearly Talzin didn't drain Dooku completely, otherwise he would be dead. And I sincerely doubt Sidious was using his lightning to it's fullest potency, as I don't think he'd be trying to kill Dooku in that fight. And Dooku had a noticeable amount of time to recover, as there were a few pages in SOD between Talzin leaving Dooku's body and Dooku getting up to aid Sidious with Force lightning.

Considering that even POD Bane was far greater in willpower than a guy who could walk and fight with a dozen arrows sticking out of the back of his neck and two spears skewered through his chest, and considering how immensely greater in will DOE Bane is when compared with POD Bane, such a thing really isn't outside of Bane's league.

And as impressive as rejoining the fight after being drained and electrocuted is, it still doesn't demonstrate the same kind of willpower needed to perform the ritual of essence transfer through a pain stated to be far far greater than being trapped in a globe containing a force lightning storm that ended up destroying lightsaber resistant orbalisks shells, meanwhile having his entire body violently spasming, meanwhile having parasites burrow through his muscles sinew and even his bones with their teeth while expanding inside of his body, and then having the parasites explode inside of him releasing chemicals dissolving his body on a molecular level (which was stated to be even more painful than the rest of the incident).

Fated Xtasy wrote:Except there isn't such a gap that Dooku would be so easily overcome by her spells. Consider the following;

Dooku has studied several holocrons, and later went on to study the Dark Holocron, a holocron containing 100,000 years worth of Sith knowledge. As stated in New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology.

This coupled with Yoda, a Jedi near 800 years old, regards him as the order's most powerful student, and one of the most learned in the force makes his knowledge of the force, quite vast.

Yes, it one's knowledge of the Force would be vast when his knowledge of it is considered unrivaled,and when he is considered one most powerful Jedi in the order's 2500 year history, and was thought to be one of the force's most powerful practitioner. What's more, as a Sith, he's said to be even stronger.
This knowledge doesn't really confirm anything in regards to a gap in willpower, so I'm really not sure what point you were trying to make here. I also never said he'd be easily overcome by Zannah's illusions, but he'd be overcome by them nonetheless.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Except he does, as i have proven.
Dooku has never experienced something as painful as even the incident where Bane was trapped in a sphere of his own lightning. Sidious's lightning is painful and all, but I highly doubt a stream of Sidious's lightning is more painful than being trapped in a ricocheting storm of Bane's Force lightning plus having parasites covering almost one's entire body burrowing through your muscles flesh and bones with their razor sharp teeth while expanding inside of them plus them exploding inside of one's body in a corrosive secretion even more painful than the latter few things. Not only did DOE Bane experience a pain far greater than that, but he immediately performed a complex and dangerous ritual after getting hit with that pain, rather than taking time to recover. Suggesting that Dooku has the same level of pain tolerance as Bane when he hasn't even experienced the kind of pain Bane has is unfounded.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Dooku is an analytical fighter, he completely recognizes each and every one of GG's flaws in battle, and those of his Guards, as well as their tactics. He's able to immediately recognizes Vos' form in old EU, and immediately recognizes the djem so and soresu forms of Obi and Anakin.
Zannah was also trained by Bane to recognize her opponent's form of lightsaber combat. And she also demonstrated the ability to hold her own against Bane, who himself could instantly adapt to any non-Jar'kai lightsaber move or sequence wielded by Kas'im.

Fated Xtasy wrote:This coupled with how Dooku's knowledge of the force, the fact that he went through the trials of spirit and insight, trials meant to test a Jedi's resistance against someone like Zannah's ilk's spells, showcases that he would be able to recognize and adjust his tactics against Zannah.
Sarro passed those Jedi trials as well, didn't do much for him (and before you argue he didn't go through the trials because war-time, Sarro was knighted three years after the war ended in peacetime). And there is a far cry between an introspective journey meant to help a person understand themselves, and a weaponized attack designed to destroy a person's mind with millions of their fears at once.

Fated Xtasy wrote:This familiarity against this kind of attack, and knowledge of spells like reanimate dead( a power he has shown in the past in Jedi Quest and taught to Ventress since she didn't use the talisman required) and the ritual with Sidious, shows that Dooku is more than well versed against Zannah, almost intimately, i would say.
Except he's never faced an attack like Zannah's before. And Zannah too would be familiar with reanimate the dead by virtue of Sorzus Syn's holocron, which she and Bane recovered before the end of her apprenticeship, and the ritual with Sidious was with Sidious and seemed to be led by Sidious. Knowledge of two spells doesn't prove Dooku to be more well versed in sorcery than Zannah, and unlike Zannah, Dooku has never shown the ability to offensively or defensively apply sorcery in combat.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Let the fun begin then.

Dooku's knowledge of the force is vast, unrivaled, and increidble. He has knowledge of spells like Reanimate dead, which he taught to Ventress. In fact, Ventress using Reanimate dead through a spell add much more significance to the following quote.
-------------
"Make me your apprentice! Teach me the ways of the Sith!"
"Have I not taught you many secrets, Asajj?"
"Scraps. Little devices. Lesser arts. Not nearly what you would if I were your apprentice sworn in blood, I know."
—Dark Rendezvous

------------

The fact that to Dooku, this ability, is considered scraps and lesser arts shows that he has much more incredible knowledge up his sleeve, this, obviously supported by his immeasurable knowledge of the force and study, makes him very lethal.

For Tyranus knows of Zannah on account of his lineage, he knows her because he gave the book of sith to Quinlan—knows too, of her spells, her defense, of her spells all because of his study of the Book, and rest assured that this study, like all others, was and is, extensive.
Except Bane never once mentioned Zannah's spells of madness in the Book of the Sith aside from a casual mention that she drove Darovit insane. Hardly a reference one could glean substantial insight into Zannah's sorcery from. And Tyranus is hardly as versed in Zannah's application of Sorcery as Bane is, as Bane actually studied the source material much of Zannah's sorcery is derived from: Naga Sadow's knowledge in Freedon Nadd's holocron, which was almost certainly lost when Gravid fucked everything up seeing as Sidious didn't come across Sadow's knowledge until after the clone wars. While Bane trained Zannah and studied the source material that Zannah's sorcery is largely derived from, Dooku doesn't have either of those luxuries, and thus, it really doesn't make sense to say he's as familiar with her sorcery as Bane is. Quite frankly, I don't see any proof Dooku is familiar with Zannah's sorcery at all.

Fated Xtasy wrote:She doesn't have to beat him, but she certainly has to give all she has into her defense if she intend to survive. Zannah's defense is not unlike Grevious' fighting style, her simplistic spin is something Grievous has replicated in the past, and he has done so in a much faster(twenty strikes per second) way. Dooku would have a rather easy time going about pressing and ultimately destroying her defenses.

Remember, Dooku trained Grievous, everything the cyborg knew of the forms he learned from Dooku, the beast, the monster that he became near the end of the war was by virtue of Dooku's teachings.

And this Cyborg was - as per usual - bested by the Count, hard pressed sure, but if the teacher was hard pressed - at times - then what fate would await Zannah? even Kenobi, Mace, and Maul had difficulty facing Grievous.
I've seen the "Zannah's defense is simplistic so it's meh" argument countless times before, especially on youtube, but it's not an argument that holds water when the ROTS novel states Kenobi's strength as a duelist is his simplicity, and Kenobi is wanked immensely as a defensive duelist and as a Soresu practitioner. Zannah was also capable of gathering energy for her sorcery while dueling Bane, and both Zannah and Dooku use fighting styles based around a minimization of energy expenditure rather than overpowering physical might, so I highly doubt either of them are going to be burning through as much physical energy as they can muster in a lightsaber duel.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Right, you're right of course.

Dooku was dealing with an unknown, a peer to Sidious, and he obviously didn't expect the attack - he couldn't see the attack -.he would be quite vulnerable to Sidious' equal. Unlike with Zannah, he knows her quite well, and has a target in front of him, that he can analyze, that he can attack, defend against and destroy.

But i love how you use that part of the comic where Dooku is attacked by a formless entity out of nowhere and with absolutely no means to defend himself. Nice.
This point is getting completely sidetracked. Point being, Dooku getting attacked from across the galaxy in no way proves his immunity to sorcery.

Fated Xtasy wrote:This is ... odd. Coming for someone who considered's Kas'im extremely powerful and talented and uses him to wank Bane? these are pretty surprising double standards.
Hardly a double standard at all. I use Bane driving back saberstaff Kas'im in lightsaber combat in the first half of their fight to wank Bane's dueling abilities, not Bane collapsing a temple on him with telekinesis. Bane driving back Kas'im in lightsaber combat is something that can be used to wank dueling skill, bringing down a temple or overpowering Sora Bulq with the Force aren't things that can be used to wank dueling skill. It's pretty simple and in no way is a double standard.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Is that so? We'll see.

Dooku has bested Grievous with extreme casualness in OCW, and has bested him several times afterwards, he is regarded as his superior even during rots. He has easily disarmed Sora Bulq and simultaneously dueled Tholme. He's proved his status as a peer to Windu my stalemating the Harunn Kal native on Boz Pity. He's dueled the duo of Obi-Wan and Skywalker.

His feat of being Grievous' superior alone places him above Zannah in strength and speed. the others are, as you said, icing on the cake. (which can have weed scented candles if you like.)
I like weed scented candles. Maybe we can have a mango flavored cake with weed scented candles when we actually talk and try to get over our problems. And no that doesn't necessarily prove his superiority to Zannah in speed when Zannah has speed feats on par or superior to DD Vos, a dude who was faster than Dooku.

Fated Xtasy wrote:What you fail to recognize, is that Zannah herself isn't bringing anything that Dooku doesn't already know, as i have already proven.
On the contrary, Bane trained Zannah for thousands of hours in the martial forms teaching her to recognize them, and Bane also wielded a curved hilt lightsaber, and Bane possesses greater lightning and telekinetic power. Really Dooku isn't bringing anything to the table that will surprise Zannah.

And Zannah's sorcery was never mentioned in the Book of Sith like you claimed earlier as proof, and Dooku didn't train Zannah or have access to the source material for much of Zannah's sorcery like Bane did, so he really isn't familiar with her sorcery like Bane was.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Yes. For Dooku has other things, such as an intimate knowledge of all forms which he passed down to Ventress and Grievous, both of whom he was superior to even when they were in their primes. Grievous was unpredictable and unorthodox to several Jedi, yet like always Dooku bested him. Mace and Sora were both highly unpredictable and fast by virtue of Vaapad, yet Dooku easily disarmed Sora, and Mace was hard pressed against Dooku.

He also has knowledge of her.
Bane had that same intimate knowledge and ability to adapt to any move or sequence from all seven forms of lightsaber combat as demonstrated against Kas'im, and has greater speed and unpredictability than Dooku. And Bane also had a more intimate familiarity with the saberstaff than Dooku. Dooku's speed and unpredictability and even his knowledge of the forms aren't going to prove more devastating than Bane's in lightsaber combat, so she'll definitely be capable of gathering her energy while dueling him in a similar manner.

Fated Xtasy wrote:"at times" not always. And delay him? i doubt she could achieve that.
Has he ever overwhelmed someone with defensive capabilities as great as Zannah's in lightsaber combat as quickly as you are suggesting he'd do to Zannah?

Fated Xtasy wrote:Yes, an asset that lose is value when Dooku has considerably more impressive speed, and the willpower and skill to defend against it.
Zannah consistently dodging lightning on several occasions and contending with Bane shows that Dooku's speed isn't going to be a problem for her, and he quite frankly doesn't have the willpower to overcome her spells.

Fated Xtasy wrote:You're comparing Dooku? a vastly superior duelist to Sarro? The scenario here will be different, Dooku knows all about Zannah, and he has showcased an ability to fight without pause in the last season fight and that's due to the Jedi wanting to bring him in for questioning. In his fight against Savage and Asajj, he fought a prolonged battle without pause, and that's due to his superior strength in the dark side. He well fell her.
I'm using the Sarro duel as an example that it only takes her the briefest of pauses to use her sorcery even while exhausted and preprime, not claiming Sarro is Dooku's peer. And again, it's not proven Dooku is familiar with Zannah's sorcery when he doesn't have access to the source material or have intimate familiarity with Zannah as Bane does, and when Bane's manuscript Dooku gave Vos doesn't even mention Sith Sorcery at all in it. And you're right, the scenario here is different. Zannah is actually at her prime, which means she can actually gather energy for her sorcery while dueling a Dooku-level opponent, and she actually has room to retreat, meaning she could back up to alleviate offensive pressure and allow her to not expend as much energy on her defenses, or she could flip several meters backwards to create easily enough space and pause to utilize her sorcery before Dooku can reengage her in martial combat. Point being, the singular time Zannah was unable to use her sorcery when she wanted to was when she was pre-prime and in a disadvantageous environment, neither of which are the case here.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Dooku is of equal caliber in terms of willpower, i have already stated this and you cannot deny it. His willpower will allow him overcome Zannah's illusion, as will his knowledge of the force, proficiency in defending against them, and his knowledge of Zannah's tactics. Dooku will overwhelm her defenses, he has the skill - the knowledge of all forms -  to do, he will see every flaw in her simplistic fighting style, and he will seize every opportunity to strike at it.
Except I can deny it when his feat doesn't compare to Bane's. He was drained, though he had time to recover some of his energy. He experienced the pain of force lightning, though he again rejoined the fight after taking time to recuperate, which doesn't compare to Bane performing a complex ritual through far greater pain than Dooku has ever been shown experiencing. And again, so what if her style's simplistic? Obi-Wan's simplicity is stated to be his strength and he's widely regarded as the master of Soresu. If anything, her style being simple means there's not much for her to mess up on and be flawed in. It's logically easier to not make mistakes or have flaws when doing something simple rather than doing something complex. And Bane had a similar knowledge of all the forms and a greater knowledge of the saberstaff and Zannah managed to escape from under him even after falling to the ground. Really Zannah can gather her energy and use her spell while simultaneously dueling Dooku in less time than it takes Dooku to outduel her, or she can disengage with a flip and use her spell then.

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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:16 pm

Still waiting for your response about how a "master of telekinesis" like "Dooku" could "dispatch her rather casually" because of Zannah's "less than impressive Force showings."

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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:39 pm

You'll get it when it is ready.
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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Shadeslayer on Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:46 pm

Hurry up Fated Xpussy, I wanna see the rape debate!
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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Fated Xtasy on Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:58 pm

Emperordmb wrote:Do I think Bane or Dooku would fall prey to her watered down spell? Definitely not. That's just proof that not anyone with decent willpower can resist Zannah's spells. Really more of a counter to the idiotic masses in general than to you, who are already more than aware of this fact.

The thing is, Dooku is not “anyone” he is Count Dooku, a Jedi to be counted among legends. And he has superior will power to boot, so why this is even an issue puzzles me.

Clearly Talzin didn't drain Dooku completely, otherwise he would be dead. And I sincerely doubt Sidious was using his lightning to it's fullest potency, as I don't think he'd be trying to kill Dooku in that fight. And Dooku had a noticeable amount of time to recover, as there were a few pages in SOD between Talzin leaving Dooku's body and Dooku getting up to aid Sidious with Force lightning.

Talzin needed to completely drain Dooku to become whole again, she became whole, thus implying she did drain him,at the very least he was left with an inch of his life force.

The comic explicitly states this, Dmb.

Whether or not he was using it to it’s fullest potential, is irrelevant . he was still harmed by the lightning, unless you think he somehow made it less painful? not to mention that after the event he was drained by Talzin, yet he managed to will himself up and fight/join his master.

Considering that even POD Bane was far greater in willpower than a guy who could walk and fight with a dozen arrows sticking out of the back of his neck and two spears skewered through his chest, and considering how immensely greater in will DOE Bane is when compared with POD Bane, such a thing really isn't outside of Bane's league.

Hold up, Bane wasn’t even there to see what’s his name near death, nor does Drew ever mention that bane was superior in willpower compared to the likes of that guy and such. Quite a bit of a stretch to use that feat to wank Bane when it in no way compares them.

Oh Please, Sheev completely overwhelmed Mace, a guy with Willpower stronger than Bane, don’t think Bane would survive that.

And as impressive as rejoining the fight after being drained and electrocuted is, it still doesn't demonstrate the same kind of willpower needed to perform the ritual of essence transfer through a pain stated to be far far greater than being trapped in a globe containing a force lightning storm that ended up destroying lightsaber resistant orbalisks shells, meanwhile having his entire body violently spasming, meanwhile having parasites burrow through his muscles sinew and even his bones with their teeth while expanding inside of his body, and then having the parasites explode inside of him releasing chemicals dissolving his body on a molecular level (which was stated to be even more painful than the rest of the incident).

You’re so downplaying this feat, like Carthage level downplaying.

As impressive as that is, the ritual requires the subject to be vulnerable and of low will in order for ET to work.

I see this feat as more impressive now that i re-read it, but, let’s not forget how the situation was played out:

- Prior to that , Bane himself acknowledged that he was doubtful of his ability to conquer the will of Serra

- Zannah was pushing herself to the very limits of the force, and that left her quite vulnerable. So she would be an easier target for such an attack.

- Nothing, absolutely nothing, states that Bane outright dominated her in that regard. They’re stated to be matched, despite Zannah having nothing in the area of will to compare her to Bane.

What’s stopping Dooku, someone with a very comparable feat in willpower,someone who is certainly more powerful than Serra, and someone who is more knowledgeable in sorcery than Bane, from resisting her?

This knowledge doesn't really confirm anything in regards to a gap in willpower, so I'm really not sure what point you were trying to make here. I also never said he'd be easily overcome by Zannah's illusions, but he'd be overcome by them nonetheless.

Perhaps, perhaps not, but he is very much so familiar with Sorcery, and would have a better defense against it than the likes of Bane.

Dooku has never experienced something as painful as even the incident where Bane was trapped in a sphere of his own lightning. Sidious's lightning is painful and all, but I highly doubt a stream of Sidious's lightning is more painful than being trapped in a ricocheting storm of Bane's Force lightning plus having parasites covering almost one's entire body burrowing through your muscles flesh and bones with their razor sharp teeth while expanding inside of them plus them exploding inside of one's body in a corrosive secretion even more painful than the latter few things.

This seems like a Sphere of Lightning to me….

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nKCUaI7yLsg/U_lnDCXOO4I/AAAAAAAEjyI/ykr6nmlwC2g/s1600/-013.jpg

granted, Bane’s situation was dire, yes. But Being drained of power in order to fully give form to Talzin, then having his own body get struck by lightning by one of the most powerful Sith in the mythos is surely something that is extremely painful.

Also, maul states that Dooku’s power/blood will resurrect Talzin, several times.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DVnm4ANhPVg/U_lm_KvJPiI/AAAAAAAEjxU/l0Y0lTjdztM/s1600/-007.jpg



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1OXIjGoeEZ8/U_lnH7PRwxI/AAAAAAAEjy8/kri1o3jLQaA/s1600/-008.jpg

Not only did DOE Bane experience a pain far greater than that, but he immediately performed a complex and dangerous ritual after getting hit with that pain, rather than taking time to recover. Suggesting that Dooku has the same level of pain tolerance as Bane when he hasn't even experienced the kind of pain Bane has is unfounded.

Um, nothing happens in between the pages, in fact in it’s basically all being depicted in the same time frame as the Maul/Talzin V Sheev/GG fight.

Judge for yourself:
http://view-comic.com/star-wars-darth-maul-son-of-dathomir-004-2014/

So yes, Tyranus has experience a great deal of pain and lived through it through sheer power of will. Saying that this feat doesn’t compare is the height of lowballing. You’re quite lucky we’re not on CV, whatever would your peers say? ;Wink

Zannah was also trained by Bane to recognize her opponent's form of lightsaber combat. And she also demonstrated the ability to hold her own against Bane, who himself could instantly adapt to any non-Jar'kai lightsaber move or sequence wielded by Kas'im.

Yes, while Dooku fought against masters of his day. Soresu in Obi-Wan, Djem So/Shien in Anakin, Vaapad/Juyo in Windu/Bulq, Ataru in Yoda/Tholme(and he knows every weakness of it), Jar’Kai in Ventress, Anakin, Grievous.  Shii-Cho is expected to be mastered by all Jedi, and of course, lastly, Makashi which is he a completely and utter master of.

All of these he has bested, or, stalemated. Zannah won’t bring anything new to this fight.


Sarro passed those Jedi trials as well, didn't do much for him (and before you argue he didn't go through the trials because war-time, Sarro was knighted three years after the war ended in peacetime). And there is a far cry between an introspective journey meant to help a person understand themselves, and a weaponized attack designed to destroy a person's mind with millions of their fears at once.

I wasn’t going too, Sarro is an experience Jedi, certainly, but he was caught off guard by Zannah due to BM being snuffed out and because he checked on his allies, that, and given how BM increasing mental defenses, reflexes and processing speeds(This is a bit of speculation, but one would assume the processing of information would be heightened given how BM also applies to Starfighters, so meh)

With his mental defenses weakened(slightly or severely) and his distraction providing an excellent opportunity, id doubt his experience with the trials helped him much.

Yet, i do know this was newbie Zannah, so i won’t tackle this fight too much.

Except he's never faced an attack like Zannah's before. And Zannah too would be familiar with reanimate the dead by virtue of Sorzus Syn's holocron, which she and Bane recovered before the end of her apprenticeship, and the ritual with Sidious was with Sidious and seemed to be led by Sidious. Knowledge of two spells doesn't prove Dooku to be more well versed in sorcery than Zannah, and unlike Zannah, Dooku has never shown the ability to offensively or defensively apply sorcery in combat.

I Never said two spell made better than Zannah, You’d do well to double check what I’m actually stating. In anycase, Dooku has a vast knowledge of the Dark Side by virtue of the Dark holocron, which, as I stated before, has 100,000 years of ancient Sith Knowledge, this coupled with how out every single Jedi in the Order, Yoda, a person who has trained hundred if not thousands of Padawans and Masters, considers him to be their most learned in the ways of the force, makes him powerful in what one would assume would be all areas of the force.

Given the mention of Rituals, abilities and such in the Book Of Sith, one would assume that Dooku is knowledgeable about a great many things.

Except Bane never once mentioned Zannah's spells of madness in the Book of the Sith aside from a casual mention that she drove Darovit insane. Hardly a reference one could glean substantial insight into Zannah's sorcery from.

Oh please, Dooku has learned more from less.


And Tyranus is hardly as versed in Zannah's application of Sorcery as Bane is, as Bane actually studied the source material much of Zannah's sorcery is derived from: Naga Sadow's knowledge in Freedon Nadd's holocron, which was almost certainly lost when Gravid fucked everything up seeing as Sidious didn't come across Sadow's knowledge until after the clone wars.

Well the dark holocron was found within Sadow’s fleet, and it’s stated to be the first Sith Holocron. It was studied by Odan Urr, Vodo-Siosk Baas, and of course, Exar Kun.

What’s More, Kun is stated to have been made stronger by this very Holocron.

Locked within it's recesses, accessible only to a Dark Lord of the Sith, are the forgotten histories and lore, dating back a hundred thousand years and more.
- Odan-Urr, Tales of the Jedi
Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.
- Tales of the Jedi

It is this great amount of knowledge makes Dooku’s knowledge of the Force, of the Sith and of Dark Powers, look a good amount better than Zannah.


While Bane trained Zannah and studied the source material that Zannah's sorcery is largely derived from, Dooku doesn't have either of those luxuries, and thus, it really doesn't make sense to say he's as familiar with her sorcery as Bane is. Quite frankly, I don't see any proof Dooku is familiar with Zannah's sorcery at all.

Dooku’s familiarity with Sorcery in general would allow him to defend against Zannah’s assault, and given his familiarity with Force Illusions, it’s quite plausible that he could break through her defenses.

Remember, the Bane had “No talent”(DOE) with Force Illusions, ergo, he was able to find no way to counter them due to this, all HE knew was that it required high levels of willpower.

To solidify this:

"My ability to guide and teach you in the ways of sorcery are limited," Bane warned her. "My talents lie in another direction. To unleash your full potential you will have to do much of the study and research on your own. It will be... perilous."
—ROT


Very much Unlike Bane, Dooku has a great deal of knowledge about Force Illusions, studied under the very first Holocron of the sith ever recovered, studied Darth Anddedu’s holocron extensively, is amongst the most learned of the Order, no, he IS the most learned of the Order, and, quite unfortunately for you, his Willpower is among the greats to boot.

Dooku doesn’t need to be familiar with Zannah’s illusions, because he also knows Illusions, intimately. He’s studied holocrons of master illusionist. Therein, lies Dooku’s greatest strength, and Bane’s greatest weakness.


I've seen the "Zannah's defense is simplistic so it's meh" argument countless times before, especially on youtube, but it's not an argument that holds water when the ROTS novel states Kenobi's strength as a duelist is his simplicity, and Kenobi is wanked immensely as a defensive duelist and as a Soresu practitioner.

Avoiding the question.

But alright, let me show you something.

There’s a great difference between Obi-Wan and every soresu user out there, this includes, but is not limited to; Zannah, Luminara, Barriss, Gnost  etc.

Kenobi’s simplicity is his strength, yes this stated, but that’s not regarding his form/style, that’s regarding his lightsaber “skill”, “ability”, etc.

His lightsaber technique is more advanced than Zannah because it’s a mesh of Ataru, Shien, Shii-Cho, and Soresu, it’s the fast style.

Ataru has allowed him to launch into full offensive mode against people like Maul, Pre, Savage, Anakin, A’sharad, Asajj and such. Hell he is counted along side QGJ & Yoda as a master of the form,this coupled with his handling of Maul/Savage with Jar’Kai, makes him incredibly proficient with Duel wielding .

Shien was a form he used since he was a padawan(along with Ataru), he’s redirected blaster fire from Hunter Killer Droid ships, several assailants. This form focus’s on redirection from nearly every possible angle, and as such adds to Kenobi’s advantage over Grievous. This is supported by Anakin’s use of Ataru/Shien.

Shii-Cho is taught to every padawan by default, but seeing as he’s proficient with normal swords(Jedi Apprentice)  it’s easy to see why he can adapt to using a different blade, regardless of their weight. Not to mention that Shii-Cho’s focus on footwork played an important role in the fight against Grievous.


And of course, Soresu, his primary form.

These forms make Kenobi’s fighting style both deadly, yet simplistic.  He combines all these well known, common, forms and creates his unique fighting technique.

A testament to Obi-Wan’s mastery of this unique fighting style is how Luke’s entire order adopted his style in their training regimen thus solidifying Kenobi’s form as more than just Soresu.

Zannah at her very core is a Soresu user, this is the reason why, when compared to Kenobi her style is extremely simplistic. She has no answer to her weakness, that being her inability to launch a full  offensive assault unlike Kenobi, who Mastered Ataru and studied Soresu as an answer to his weakness, her style is still very much lacking a strong offense. and hence why, the argument, while sometimes facile, is not untrue, not at least when comparing her to a person how made the passive style into something else, something that was studied by hundreds if not hundreds of thousands even after he died.



Zannah was also capable of gathering energy for her sorcery while dueling Bane, and both Zannah and Dooku use fighting styles based around a minimization of energy expenditure rather than overpowering physical might, so I highly doubt either of them are going to be burning through as much physical energy as they can muster in a lightsaber duel.

Gathering energy for a force ability and expending energy to continue a battle  are two different things.

Hardly a double standard at all. I use Bane driving back saberstaff Kas'im in lightsaber combat in the first half of their fight to wank Bane's dueling abilities, not Bane collapsing a temple on him with telekinesis. Bane driving back Kas'im in lightsaber combat is something that can be used to wank dueling skill, bringing down a temple or overpowering Sora Bulq with the Force aren't things that can be used to wank dueling skill. It's pretty simple and in no way is a double standard.

No, you pretty much shamelessly used Kas’im’s weaksauce force barrier prior to dying , So yah.

In any case, Dooku is an equal to Mace in several sources, if Mace could best Bulq while holding back, Dooku could dispatch Sora with just as much ease, which was my original point.

Dooku, btw, casually disarmed Bulq before tking him. Nice try though!
And no that doesn't necessarily prove his superiority to Zannah in speed when Zannah has speed feats on par or superior to DD Vos, a dude who was faster than Dooku.

Key difference being Vos' form was actually offensive versus’ Zannah being a defensive duelist. Still it is interesting to see that you hold Vos near Zannah, scandalous.

On the contrary, Bane trained Zannah for thousands of hours in the martial forms teaching her to recognize them, and Bane also wielded a curved hilt lightsaber, and Bane possesses greater lightning and telekinetic power. Really Dooku isn't bringing anything to the table that will surprise Zannah.



Except superior dueling finesse, better and less sloppy technique, a plethora of lightsaber lightsaber knowledge that is supported by the Monster he trained.

Better Telekinesis via moving cruisers from the last known Sith Empire(aka SWTOR Empire) which were 300-500 hundred meters in length.

Or if it was Revan/Malak’s empire it was likely 315 meters in length.

Need i also remind you that it was several cruisers?

Take your pick.


Bane’s greatest TK feat has been wrecked, and you know it. The temple is heavily damaged by the blasts of a Starship, Dooku has superior Telekinesis this is a fact.

And Zannah's sorcery was never mentioned in the Book of Sith like you claimed earlier as proof, and Dooku didn't train Zannah or have access to the source material for much of Zannah's sorcery like Bane did, so he really isn't familiar with her sorcery like Bane was.

Already answered. You know what Bane did mention though? Zannah’s style and form how much of an advantage would that be, i wonder?

Bane had that same intimate knowledge and ability to adapt to any move or sequence from all seven forms of lightsaber combat as demonstrated against Kas'im.


Because of his familiarity with Saberstaff Kas’im. If they had constantly trained together, then they would both be very familiar with one another’s form and style. Despite this information, and the fact that Jar’Kai is a sub-form of Ataru/Niman, Kas’im drove Bane back very solidly.

and has greater speed and unpredictability than Dooku.

If Dooku is considered by Yoda to be an equal of one the most skilled Jedi Masters and duelist of his time, a Man whose very form is by nature one of blinding speed, then Bane does not have greater speed. Or unpredictability.

If he is able to casually meet the speed of two of the most skilled duelist at the same time, in Anakin & Kenobi, Bane is not more unpredictable.


And Bane also had a more intimate familiarity with the saberstaff than Dooku. Dooku's speed and unpredictability and even his knowledge of the forms aren't going to prove more devastating than Bane's in lightsaber combat.

Oh they won’t, they’ll be even more devastating.

so she'll definitely be capable of gathering her energy while dueling him in a similar manner.

So you believe.

Has he ever overwhelmed someone with defensive capabilities as great as Zannah's in lightsaber combat as quickly as you are suggesting he'd do to Zannah?
It doesn’t matter, Lightsaber combat, force power, perhaps a combination of both will end her, plain and simple.

Zannah consistently dodging lightning on several occasions and contending with Bane shows that Dooku's speed isn't going to be a problem for her, and he quite frankly doesn't have the willpower to overcome her spells.

Answered.

I'm using the Sarro duel as an example that it only takes her the briefest of pauses to use her sorcery even while exhausted and preprime, not claiming Sarro is Dooku's peer. And again, it's not proven Dooku is familiar with Zannah's sorcery when he doesn't have access to the source material or have intimate familiarity with Zannah as Bane does,

He does have the same source material, so answered.

Secondly Bane himself had no knowledge of how to defend against illusions because he had no “talent” in it.  Let’s not forget that this familiarity didn’t do shit for him.

and when Bane's manuscript Dooku gave Vos doesn't even mention Sith Sorcery at all in it.

Dooku has a wealth of knowledge due to the Dark holocron, a holocron that made Exar Kun more powerful, he’s extensively studied Jedi arts and Sith, and even he became more powerful after becoming  A sith, where he learned Illusions.


And you're right, the scenario here is different. Zannah is actually at her prime, which means she can actually gather energy for her sorcery while dueling a Dooku-level opponent.

Okay..

and she actually has room to retreat, meaning she could back up to alleviate offensive pressure and allow her to not expend as much energy on her defenses, or she could flip several meters backwards to create easily enough space and pause to utilize her sorcery before Dooku can reengage her in martial combat.

Or she’ll be caught mid flip by TK because Unlike Bane, Dooku does integrate Force Powers into his arsenal freely and won’t charge like a bull.

Point being, the singular time Zannah was unable to use her sorcery when she wanted to was when she was pre-prime and in a disadvantageous environment, neither of which are the case here.

I never would have guessed that a nexu would be considered disadvantageous.

Except I can deny it when his feat doesn't compare to Bane's. He was drained, though he had time to recover some of his energy. He experienced the pain of force lightning, though he again rejoined the fight after taking time to recuperate, which doesn't compare to Bane performing a complex ritual through far greater pain than Dooku has ever been shown experiencing.

A ritual done in complete desperation, a ritual which wasn’t as complex as it was made out to be, if I’m honest.

And again, so what if her style's simplistic? Obi-Wan's simplicity is stated to be his strength and he's widely regarded as the master of Soresu. If anything, her style being simple means there's not much for her to mess up on and be flawed in. It's logically easier to not make mistakes or have flaws when doing something simple rather than doing something complex. And Bane had a similar knowledge of all the forms and a greater knowledge of the saberstaff and Zannah managed to escape from under him even after falling to the ground. Really Zannah can gather her energy and use her spell while simultaneously dueling Dooku in less time than it takes Dooku to outduel her, or she can disengage with a flip and use her spell then.


Answered.



My closing argument begins.

Illusions:

Bane’s willpower is based on your speculation that Anddedu was in fact in the Holocron, be it a mere fragment of him or perhaps his very spirit.

The facts are that Anddedu was only able to manifest his power and spirit on a much stronger Nexus, like Prakkith , and he had no way of actually doing anything anywhere esle, especially on a weak nexus on Korriban.

So even if Anddedu’s spirit was in there, he had no way of doing anything unless he could drain someone of their life force, had his corpse nearby, and was on a very strong nexus.

So, Bane overcoming Anddedu, isn’t as impressive as you make it out to be.

And thus one of Bane’s most impressive showings, is debunked.

Continuing, Bane’s knowledge is, by his own admission, limited, where as Dooku has studied several holocrons containing knowledge of Illusions and even more powerful powers, one such holocron was able to make the darkest power in the galaxy “stronger”

Dooku is intimate with Force Illusions, he has a wealth of knowledge that makes him extremely powerful, and because, unlike Bane, he has studied Illusions, it’s very likely that someone who knows these abilities in and out would be able to mount a defense that, coupled with his great Willpower make him deadlier than even Bane.

Dueling:

Dooku outclasses Zannah, pure and simple, her style is at it’s core, completely defensive, which is good, but Dooku has fought the very best of his time, this and her lack of a fully developed offensive will be the end of her.

Unlike Kenobi, Anakin or Gen. Grievous all of whom have other forms under their belts, Zannah is just a proficient user of Soresu. Dooku will not need to use any special tactics against someone who only uses on form, a form he is intimately familiar with.

He’s praised as an equal to Dooku, has dueled Yoda in what is regarded as a “stalemate” and a “force clash of titans”

He has casually dealt with Tholme and Bulq, the last of which has been stated to have perfected the seven forms and techniques.

She has no strong offense to push the Count back, and her defense will only expend energy against the Count, a man who could use the force to keep himself fighting for as long as he would need.

He has dealt with far more powerful and skilled opponents, and an even better soresu user.

If, however, you still doubt Dooku’s ability to break through Zannah’s defenses, then Dooku will immediately recognize this and rely on his powers with great fervor. He’ll do exactly to her, what he did to Zannah, however unlike Kenobi, Zannah has no one to save her.

Force Powers:


Zannah has nothing. absolutely nothing on Dooku in this regard, Dooku has vastly superior Telekinetic prowess and can casually dismiss her own blasts.

She has shown no real raw power to meet Dooku’s superior ability, and though she can block lightning with her saber, her use of athletic moves may end with her being thrown about mid flip by Dooku, who consistently uses Force Powers along with his saber attacks .

Zannah has nothing here to show, Ragdolling Lucia?  Dooku has send several pikes back with a push. Tking a distracted Bane and slamming him to a wall? Dooku has sent cruisers flying with ease.

Zannah is outmatched, and outskilled  by Dooku, her illusions may have worked on someone who had no talent with them, but as someone who does, as someone who is counted among the greats of Legends, as someone who got up right after Talzin drained him within an inch of his life, as someone who survived Sidious’ TK, as someone with willpower beyond that of many, Dooku will survive, and this time, Zannah won’t have her tendrils to save her.

It’s interesting how you shy away from all out, and attempt to draw me into debating everything separately, I commend you on the attempt but it didn’t work.

Dooku is simply more well rounded, more intelligent, more skilled and more powerful than Zannah could ever hope to be, he has an answer to whatever she brings. And will end her.

If not with the blade, then with the force, if not with the force, then with the blade.  

And finally, as promised.

Our debate must come to an end, your stance will not change, I know this too well. But if you deny that Dooku is above Zannah be it because of some inability to admit you can lose, or because your obsession with these characters prohibits you from doing so, or because you do have a legitimate reason. Regardless of that, this as far as we shall go in engaging one another in debates for the foreseeable future.

One must learn to lose with grace, and accept when one has failed. Be it you, or me.

Our debate ends, and with it, our continued communication and my tenure in this forum.

Farewell
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Fated Xtasy
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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Shadeslayer on Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:23 pm

And so the rape continues.

You make me so happy Xpussy.
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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:27 pm

Destin Extase wrote:The thing is, Dooku is not “anyone” he is Count Dooku, a Jedi to be counted among legends. And he has superior will power to boot, so why this is even an issue puzzles me.
More of a preemptive assertion than anything else. And no, Dooku certainly does not have superior to Bane.

Destin Extase wrote:Talzin needed to completely drain Dooku to become whole again, she became whole, thus implying she did drain him,at the very least he was left with an inch of his life force.

The comic explicitly states this, Dmb.

Whether or not he was using it to it’s fullest potential, is irrelevant . he was still harmed by the lightning, unless you think he somehow made it less painful? not to mention that after the event he was drained by Talzin, yet he managed to will himself up and fight/join his master.
He still did not get up instantly, and Sidious’s lightning was hardly used to its fullest potential. He was trying to exorcise Talzin, not kill the figurehead for the CIS. And besides, Dooku’s clothes weren’t even scorched while Bane’s lightning reduced his clothes to ash, melted his boots into a puddle, and blackened the shells of ORBALISKS. It’s not very hard to tell which lightning was being used to a greater intensity.

And being electrocuted by lightning after being drained would no doubt be painful, but hardly as painful as Bane being electrocuted by lightning, while the orbalisks were constantly pumping chemicals into his bloodstream that made his blood feel like it was boiling, while the orbalisks (covering every part of his body except his hands, feet, and head) chewing through his muscle sinew and bones, while they were expanding inside of his violently convulsing body, and then exploding inside of him, taking the pain to another level.

Very clearly, what Bane went through on Tython would be considerably more painful. Not only that, but Bane experiencing brief contact with a tendril was far more painful than that, and it stands to reason that having one sever his arm would be considerably more painful than brief contact. And once again, Dooku laid on the ground for a little bit before getting up, not experiencing the full brunt of the pain when he rejoined the fight, while Bane on the other hand was in the process of actually experiencing far worse pain when he mustered the willpower to perform a complex ritual.

Dooku’s feat of willpower is no doubt impressive, but Bane’s is quite substantially better.

Destin Extase wrote:Hold up, Bane wasn’t even there to see what’s his name near death, nor does Drew ever mention that bane was superior in willpower compared to the likes of that guy and such. Quite a bit of a stretch to use that feat to wank Bane when it in no way compares them.
Ummm… Kaan managed to effect Kopecz with his mental influence to a certain degree, while when trying his damn hardest against Bane, Bane shrugged off his efforts with casual ease. Comparing Bane to Kopecz in willpower isn’t hard… at all.

Destin Extase wrote:Oh Please, Sheev completely overwhelmed Mace, a guy with Willpower stronger than Bane, don’t think Bane would survive that.
LMFAO! Mace… stronger willpower… than Bane?! No. You provided nothing to substantiate that claim, and Mace has nothing on Bane’s vast wealth and intensity of willpower feats.

Destin Extase wrote:You’re so downplaying this feat, like Carthage level downplaying.

As impressive as that is, the ritual requires the subject to be vulnerable and of low will in order for ET to work.

I see this feat as more impressive now that i re-read it, but, let’s not forget how the situation was played out:

- Prior to that , Bane himself acknowledged that he was doubtful of his ability to conquer the will of Serra

- Zannah was pushing herself to the very limits of the force, and that left her quite vulnerable. So she would be an easier target for such an attack.

- Nothing, absolutely nothing, states that Bane outright dominated her in that regard. They’re stated to be matched, despite Zannah having nothing in the area of will to compare her to Bane.

What’s stopping Dooku, someone with a very comparable feat in willpower,someone who is certainly more powerful than Serra, and someone who is more knowledgeable in sorcery than Bane, from resisting her?
Yeah, this argument is pointless. The willpower of whoever Bane’s using the ritual on is irrelevant to the fact that he evoked a complex Sith ritual while in pain far more agonizing than anything Dooku has ever felt or fought through.

Destin Extase wrote:Perhaps, perhaps not, but he is very much so familiar with Sorcery, and would have a better defense against it than the likes of Bane.
“Than the likes of Bane?”
Bane has access to the source material Zannah’s sorcery is derived from. Dooku does not.
Bane is very much more familiar with Zannah’s sorcery than Dooku is, and in all of Bane’s study, there was no confirmed defense against Zannah’s spell aside from willpower. Suggesting Dooku has some defense is based on speculation on the grounds of Dooku having familiarity with sorcery, which falls flat when Bane actually had access to the source material for Zannah’s sorcery and couldn’t find some technique.

Destin Extase wrote:This seems like a Sphere of Lightning to me….

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nKCUaI7yLsg/U_lnDCXOO4I/AAAAAAAEjyI/ykr6nmlwC2g/s1600/-013.jpg

granted, Bane’s situation was dire, yes. But Being drained of power in order to fully give form to Talzin, then having his own body get struck by lightning by one of the most powerful Sith in the mythos is surely something that is extremely painful.

Also, maul states that Dooku’s power/blood will resurrect Talzin, several times.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DVnm4ANhPVg/U_lm_KvJPiI/AAAAAAAEjxU/l0Y0lTjdztM/s1600/-007.jpg



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1OXIjGoeEZ8/U_lnH7PRwxI/AAAAAAAEjy8/kri1o3jLQaA/s1600/-008.jpg
Okay, Dooku was drained beforehand. That doesn’t suddenly make Sheev’s lightning as painful as Bane’s experience on Tython, much less his contact with the Tendrils on Ambria.

Destin Extase wrote:Um, nothing happens in between the pages, in fact in it’s basically all being depicted in the same time frame as the Maul/Talzin V Sheev/GG fight.

Judge for yourself:
http://view-comic.com/star-wars-darth-maul-son-of-dathomir-004-2014/

So yes, Tyranus has experience a great deal of pain and lived through it through sheer power of will. Saying that this feat doesn’t compare is the height of lowballing.
He still gained more of a reprieve than Bane did. And no, you haven’t even proven that said “great deal of pain” was even on the level of Bane’s experience on Tython, much less the tendrils on Ambria. So no, the feat does not compare.

Destin Extase wrote:You’re quite lucky we’re not on CV, whatever would your peers say? ;Wink
My peers think I’m winning LOL

Destin Extase wrote:Yes, while Dooku fought against masters of his day. Soresu in Obi-Wan, Djem So/Shien in Anakin, Vaapad/Juyo in Windu/Bulq, Ataru in Yoda/Tholme(and he knows every weakness of it), Jar’Kai in Ventress, Anakin, Grievous.  Shii-Cho is expected to be mastered by all Jedi, and of course, lastly, Makashi which is he a completely and utter master of.

All of these he has bested, or, stalemated. Zannah won’t bring anything new to this fight.
I never argued she was bringing anything new to this fight, so I really don’t know why you’re arguing against a point I never made. It always amuses me when people argue against a point I never made and act like it gets them somewhere.

And no he did not best or stalemate Yoda, that’s an absurd claim.

Destin Extase wrote:I wasn’t going too, Sarro is an experience Jedi, certainly, but he was caught off guard by Zannah due to BM being snuffed out and because he checked on his allies, that, and given how BM increasing mental defenses, reflexes and processing speeds(This is a bit of speculation, but one would assume the processing of information would be heightened given how BM also applies to Starfighters, so meh)

With his mental defenses weakened(slightly or severely) and his distraction providing an excellent opportunity, id doubt his experience with the trials helped him much.

Yet, i do know this was newbie Zannah, so i won’t tackle this fight too much.
I wasn’t arguing his mental defenses were being bolstered by BM. You were acting like Dooku passing the Jedi trials somehow allows him to resist Zannah’s sorcery when it has, pre-prime, overwhelmed someone who passed the Jedi trials.

Destin Extase wrote:I Never said two spell made better than Zannah, You’d do well to double check what I’m actually stating. In anycase, Dooku has a vast knowledge of the Dark Side by virtue of the Dark holocron, which, as I stated before, has 100,000 years of ancient Sith Knowledge, this coupled with how out every single Jedi in the Order, Yoda, a person who has trained hundred if not thousands of Padawans and Masters, considers him to be their most learned in the ways of the force, makes him powerful in what one would assume would be all areas of the force.

Given the mention of Rituals, abilities and such in the Book Of Sith, one would assume that Dooku is knowledgeable about a great many things.
Yet Dooku has never demonstrated an aptitude for sorcery or wielded it to great effect in combat, so it’s baseless to assume he somehow rivals or exceeds Zannah in this area, or that he has some unique insight into her sorcery that Bane’s access to the source material it was derived from did not provide him.

Plus, Bane had the holocron of Revan, who gleaned thousands of years of knowledge from the Trayus Academy, as well as the holocron of Sorzus Syn, who acquired and advanced the knowledge of the Sith species, building upon the 100,000 years of knowledge they already had. Not to mention Bane’s study of Nadd’s holocron, who is credited with knowledge of every Force power in a sourcebook.

Keeping in mind that this 100,000 years of ancient sith knowledge… the vast majority of it would be from before the first Lords of the Sith conquered the Sith species, noted to be considerably more powerful than the species, and noted to have advanced the Sith further. So if you’re suggesting that this Sith knowledge somehow puts Dooku above Bane and Zannah, you should be aware that the vast majority of this knowledge doesn’t really compare with what the knowledge the Sith acquired after meeting the exiled Jedi who became the first Sith Lords, and it was created before the great pioneers of Sith sorcery, such as Freedon Nadd, Vitiate, and Exar Kun.

Destin Extase wrote:Oh please, Dooku has learned more from less.
It is literally impossible for Dooku to discern some useful information on the intricacies of Zannah’s sorcery from a mention that Zannah drove Darovit insane. I don’t know how you think that sidenote would grant Dooku any sort of edge over Zannah.

Destin Extase wrote:Well the dark holocron was found within Sadow’s fleet, and it’s stated to be the first Sith Holocron. It was studied by Odan Urr, Vodo-Siosk Baas, and of course, Exar Kun.

What’s More, Kun is stated to have been made stronger by this very Holocron.

Locked within it's recesses, accessible only to a Dark Lord of the Sith, are the forgotten histories and lore, dating back a hundred thousand years and more.
- Odan-Urr, Tales of the Jedi
Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.
- Tales of the Jedi

It is this great amount of knowledge makes Dooku’s knowledge of the Force, of the Sith and of Dark Powers, look a good amount better than Zannah.
The quality of the pre-Sith Lord Sith knowledge has already been addressed, and a history lesson isn’t going to get Dooku anywhere. And it hardly makes Dooku look a good amount better when he hasn’t actually demonstrated any impressive use of Sith sorcery while Zannah actually has.

Destin Extase wrote:Dooku’s familiarity with Sorcery in general would allow him to defend against Zannah’s assault, and given his familiarity with Force Illusions, it’s quite plausible that he could break through her defenses.

Remember, the Bane had “No talent”(DOE) with Force Illusions, ergo, he was able to find no way to counter them due to this, all HE knew was that it required high levels of willpower.

To solidify this:

"My ability to guide and teach you in the ways of sorcery are limited," Bane warned her. "My talents lie in another direction. To unleash your full potential you will have to do much of the study and research on your own. It will be... perilous."
—ROT


Very much Unlike Bane, Dooku has a great deal of knowledge about Force Illusions, studied under the very first Holocron of the sith ever recovered, studied Darth Anddedu’s holocron extensively, is amongst the most learned of the Order, no, he IS the most learned of the Order, and, quite unfortunately for you, his Willpower is among the greats to boot.

Dooku doesn’t need to be familiar with Zannah’s illusions, because he also knows Illusions, intimately. He’s studied holocrons of master illusionist. Therein, lies Dooku’s greatest strength, and Bane’s greatest weakness.
Except Bane also has a great deal of knowledge about Sith Sorcery, just the same as Dooku, particularly knowledge of the source material of Zannah’s spells to begin with, and Dooku has demonstrated no more talent for sorcery than Bane has.

Bane at least has demonstrated the usage of Sith rituals before (the storm on Ruusan, thought bomb, holocron creating ritual, essence transfer etc.

And Dooku’s study of Andeddu’s holocron literally does nothing for him since Bane stole Andeddu’s knowledge from him and it didn’t help him against Zannah.

Destin Extase wrote:Avoiding the question.

But alright, let me show you something.

There’s a great difference between Obi-Wan and every soresu user out there, this includes, but is not limited to; Zannah, Luminara, Barriss, Gnost  etc.

Kenobi’s simplicity is his strength, yes this stated, but that’s not regarding his form/style, that’s regarding his lightsaber “skill”, “ability”, etc.

His lightsaber technique is more advanced than Zannah because it’s a mesh of Ataru, Shien, Shii-Cho, and Soresu, it’s the fast style.

Ataru has allowed him to launch into full offensive mode against people like Maul, Pre, Savage, Anakin, A’sharad, Asajj and such. Hell he is counted along side QGJ & Yoda as a master of the form,this coupled with his handling of Maul/Savage with Jar’Kai, makes him incredibly proficient with Duel wielding .

Shien was a form he used since he was a padawan(along with Ataru), he’s redirected blaster fire from Hunter Killer Droid ships, several assailants. This form focus’s on redirection from nearly every possible angle, and as such adds to Kenobi’s advantage over Grievous. This is supported by Anakin’s use of Ataru/Shien.

Shii-Cho is taught to every padawan by default, but seeing as he’s proficient with normal swords(Jedi Apprentice)  it’s easy to see why he can adapt to using a different blade, regardless of their weight. Not to mention that Shii-Cho’s focus on footwork played an important role in the fight against Grievous.


And of course, Soresu, his primary form.

These forms make Kenobi’s fighting style both deadly, yet simplistic.  He combines all these well known, common, forms and creates his unique fighting technique.

A testament to Obi-Wan’s mastery of this unique fighting style is how Luke’s entire order adopted his style in their training regimen thus solidifying Kenobi’s form as more than just Soresu.

Zannah at her very core is a Soresu user, this is the reason why, when compared to Kenobi her style is extremely simplistic. She has no answer to her weakness, that being her inability to launch a full  offensive assault unlike Kenobi, who Mastered Ataru and studied Soresu as an answer to his weakness, her style is still very much lacking a strong offense. and hence why, the argument, while sometimes facile, is not untrue, not at least when comparing her to a person how made the passive style into something else, something that was studied by hundreds if not hundreds of thousands even after he died.
Great, this doesn’t make Zannah’s defensive capabilities as a duelist somehow lesser than Kenobi’s or make her fighting style easy for Dooku to penetrate however, and all Zannah needs to do is hold out long enough to use her sorcery, which you have tried and failed to prove Dooku has the willpower to resist. She doesn’t need offensive dueling capability to beat him, which you’ve just written an essay explaining she doesn’t have in the same regard as Kenobi does.

And when comparing their defenses, they are remarkably similar. Both rely on quick and precise movements as well as redirection for their defensive maneuvers, simplicity, and agile acrobatic dodging and subtle body movements to evade movement.

Arguing simplicity to be a weakness in Zannah’s lightsaber abilities is pointless when defense all she needs, and her defensive technique is well structured to combat Dooku’s offensive, due to her own focus on footwork and precision. Plus the fact that her style is so simple means there’s less for her to fuck up on.

Destin Extase wrote:Gathering energy for a force ability and expending energy to continue a battle are two different things.
And Zannah’s style allows her to expend very little energy to continue battle while maintaining her defenses. The fact that you think Zannah is going to need to expend all of her energy dueling him when both of their fighting styles are based around conserving energy and while Zannah has demonstrated the ability to gather energy for her sorcery while dueling DOE Bane is absurd.

Destin Extase wrote:No, you pretty much shamelessly used Kas’im’s weaksauce force barrier prior to dying , So yah.
“Weaksauce”? The guy blocks an attack that could liquidate him… and you call it weaksauce? I’m wanking what is lightsaber ability as a lightsaber feat, and what is a demonstration of force power as a force feat. Hardly any double standard or logical fallacy there, and you referring to Kas’im’s feat as weaksauce really only shows just how contemptuous you really are towards the DBT era and its characters by this point.

Destin Extase wrote:In any case, Dooku is an equal to Mace in several sources, if Mace could best Bulq while holding back, Dooku could dispatch Sora with just as much ease, which was my original point.

Dooku, btw, casually disarmed Bulq before tking him. Nice try though!
Good for Dooku. Doesn’t exactly prove he can overwhelm Zannah though. Consider however that POD Bane was driving saberstaff Kas’im into a desperate retreat with his offensive, while Zannah managed to hold her own against DOE Bane’s offensive in a gradual retreat. Consider that not only does DOE Bane vastly outstrip POD Bane as an offensive duelist, but also recognize that saberstaff Kas’im is a substantially greater duelist than Sora Bulq, since Sora Bulq has nothing on being able to near-instantly stomp trainee Bane (who has already stomped a high level master of multiple forms with an otherwise perfect dueling record, moved literally faster than a room of near Sith masters could see, utterly physically dominated an opponent substantially stronger than one who could knock other apprentices to the ground behind the Force of his blows, and soloed a dozen Tuk’ata with his lightsaber skills when they had him surrounded while exhausted and hungry).

Destin Extase wrote:Key difference being Vos' form was actually offensive versus’ Zannah being a defensive duelist. Still it is interesting to see that you hold Vos near Zannah, scandalous.
Whether or not they’re offensive or defensive doesn’t matter, the fact is Zannah has better speed feats than DD Vos and DD Vos is stated to be faster than Dooku. Whether or not she fights offensively or defensively has little to do with the comparison when you are seeking to make the claim Dooku is faster than her.

Destin Extase wrote:Except superior dueling finesse, better and less sloppy technique, a plethora of lightsaber lightsaber knowledge that is supported by the Monster he trained.

Except even POD Bane already demonstrated enough knowledge to counter every move, form, and sequence of lightsaber combat (with the exception of Jar’kai, which Dooku detests and lacks the armament for), and Dooku as a Makashi purist wouldn’t rely on an application of other forms in this fight.

And “better and less sloppy technique”? Bane’s technique is hardly sloppy. Even before coming remotely close to surpassing Sirak and prior to his special training with Kas’im, Bane still practiced each of his techniques to the point where he could perform them flawlessly every time.

“Bane repeated the single move over and over, careful to maintain the height and angle of the blade exactly as Kas'im had shown him, teaching his muscles through countless repetitions until they could replicate it flawlessly each and every time.-Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Suggesting Dooku’s finesse will overcome Zannah on the grounds that she only defended against sloppy duelist doesn’t make sense when Bane practiced his techniques to the point of flawless application.

Destin Extase wrote:Better Telekinesis via moving cruisers from the last known Sith Empire(aka SWTOR Empire) which were 300-500 hundred meters in length.

Or if it was Revan/Malak’s empire it was likely 315 meters in length.

Need i also remind you that it was several cruisers?

Take your pick.
Several cruisers meaning one cruiser and two other ships… in sequence. He moved a nondescript ship, then another nondescript ship, then a cruiser, then smashed other nondescript ships together. Only one of them was confirmed as a cruiser, and it’s extremely unlikely it belonged to Revan’s empire or the empire in SWTOR when the Brotherhood of Darkness occupied Korriban much recently than any other Sith sect, and there have been cruisers much much smaller than the ones you are providing schematics for, as cruiser is indeed a term with a variety of uses, especially considering ships with a four man crew in the very same novel Dooku’s feat takes place in are referred to as cruisers. Hell, every ship on the landing pad in Dreshdae in the novel is referred to as a cruiser. I hardly think every person with business on Korriban is flying around in a star destroyer. Say what you want but the term “cruiser” is used very interchangeably with the term “ship” by Jude Watson in The Final Showdown. Not to mentioned they were described as corroded wrecks, which they should be after at least a couple thousand years of disuse.

Destin Extase wrote:Bane’s greatest TK feat has been wrecked, and you know it. The temple is heavily damaged by the blasts of a Starship, Dooku has superior Telekinesis this is a fact.
Heavily damaged? The temple seemed pretty structurally sound to me considering it was described as being in good condition, and it survived the very first part of the impact of Bane’s wave which shook the foundations of the temple, stated as being far beneath the surface of the planet, which is a good durability feat for the temple and further adds to the impressiveness of Bane’s Force wave if substantially less than the full impact of the wave still managed to shake foundations far beneath the planet’s surface. Indeed such a vastly huge temple also seen in SOR which you were referencing was collapsed by less than the full impact of Bane’s wave since Kas’im’s force barrier absorbed the focal point of the wave, which would undoubtedly be its strongest point.

Let’s talk about the focal point of the wave though. The power of telekinetic attacks generally disperses while they traverse a distance, particularly with telekinetic waves and repulses as the surface area generally scopes outwards, demonstrated by the fact that the power of force repulses dies off at certain distances and that the power of Plagueis’s force wave waned from almost atomizing a dozen people to merely killing another six as it continued. This is simple logic as an attack with finite strength is clearly going to dilute more as it spreads out and traverses distance. Considering that Kas’im was standing at the top of a 20 meter tall staircase while Bane was at the bottom, Kas’im would’ve been roughly 35 meters away from Bane.

So the focal point of Bane’s attack after traversing roughly 35 meters of distance was still powerful enough to liquidate Kas’im’s body, something generally only seen from telekinetics as powerful as Darth Vader or Darth Plagueis.

So to recap, Bane aimed his telekinetic wave upwards at Kas’im, and given that he aimed it upwards, the first part of the wave that would’ve struck the temple would’ve been the outer edges of the wave, the least potent part of such an attack, which were still powerful enough to shake the temple’s foundations which were far beneath the surface of the planet, yet this impact did not structurally compromise the temple, which is a testament to the temple’s structural integrity and durability. So after the foundations of the temple were shaken far beneath the surface of the planet by a relatively small part of the wave’s destructive output, less than the full brunt of the wave (since the focal point was blocked) brought down the entire temple. And talking about the focal point of the wave, after traversing roughly 35 meters, was capable of liquidating a man. Quite an insane feat of telekinetic power.

And when comparing Bane and Dooku, Dooku accomplished this feat roughly around his prime whereas Bane was exhausted from his fight with Kas’im and grew quite vastly in power afterwards (being more powerful than he ever was before with two orbalisks, being substantially more powerful by the end of Rule of Two with almost his full body covered with orbalisks and an additional decade of experience and knowledge, and being even more powerful than that by DOE given his ability to outstrip ROT Bane’s force augmentation by a very considerable margin).

So yes, Bane is a greater telekinetic than Dooku, and telekinesis was considered a relatively pointless weapon for Bane and Zannah to wield against each other. Adding to this, Zannah was able to throw DOE Bane into a wall despite him throwing up a barrier (Bane’s barriers in a weaker incarnation have shielded him and a large drexl from atmospheric with reentry which has been known to disintegrate large ships and asteroids btw), and though he was disadvantaged by being caught somewhat off guard and being drugged, he still had an advantage of having gathered his power beforehand and threw up a barrier to partially mitigate the disadvantage, and thus this demonstrates Zannah’s parity with Bane as a telekinetic. Also to demonstrate this parity is that Bane considers Zannah to be on par with him in Force power, and Zannah herself is a telekinetic savant as levitating, snapping two Jedi’s necks, using precise telekinetic attacks at will, and disintegrating her cousin’s arm, all as a child with no training demonstrate. Point being, Zannah has quite a bit supporting her as a telekinetic peer to Bane and aside from this shielded herself and a bouncer from a force lightning storm that reduced the forest and landscape around them to nothing but ash. Dooku sure as hell is not overpowering her Force defenses with telekinetic might, and definitely not telekinetically dispatching her casually as you seem to have stated on KMC.

Destin Extase wrote:Already answered. You know what Bane did mention though? Zannah’s style and form how much of an advantage would that be, i wonder?
Probably not much of an advantage considering Dooku might not recognize who she is, considering it only mentions what her style places emphasis on and nothing of its intricacies, and considering Dooku’s fighting style would be very obvious to Zannah as well (I mean anyone with training in lightsaber combat who can’t tell Dooku uses makashi is probably mentally challenged).

I do find it curious however that you keep trying to suggest Dooku has some inside knowledge on Zannah that will lead to his victory, first on her sorcery and then on her fighting style. I thought you were confident on Dooku’s superiority by his own merits, yet you seem to be relying on arguing Dooku has some unfair advantage over Zannah via inside knowledge on her.

Destin Extase wrote:Because of his familiarity with Saberstaff Kas’im. If they had constantly trained together, then they would both be very familiar with one another’s form and style. Despite this information, and the fact that Jar’Kai is a sub-form of Ataru/Niman, Kas’im drove Bane back very solidly.

Yes but Jar’kai was the only thing Kas’im had that Bane was unprepared to handle. Aside from this he was familiar with and could adapt to any moves or tactics Kas’im could bust out, and Kas’im mastered every single move and sequence of lightsaber combat (many of these sequences blended and cycled through several forms at once). So yes, Bane demonstrating familiarity with and adaptability to Kas’im’s techniques basically shows he has knowledge of and can adapt to every form of lightsaber combat with the exception of Jar’kai (it’s explicitly stated that POD Bane had no knowledge or experience in regards to dual wielding so don’t pretend he had knowledge on dual blades when the entire point of that section of the fight was that he didn’t). Bane may have familiarity with Kas’im’s techniques, but Kas’im’s techniques basically include all techniques, so yes, I can use that to wank Bane’s knowledge of lightsaber combat in general.

Destin Extase wrote:If Dooku is considered by Yoda to be an equal of one the most skilled Jedi Masters and duelist of his time, a Man whose very form is by nature one of blinding speed, then Bane does not have greater speed. Or unpredictability.

If he is able to casually meet the speed of two of the most skilled duelist at the same time, in Anakin & Kenobi, Bane is not more unpredictable.

Bane clearly has greater speed than Dooku, based on his speed feats. Trainee Bane moved faster than a room full of near-Sith masters could see yet would’ve still been near blitzed by saberstaff Kas’im, while POD Bane was not only contending with but outpacing saberstaff Kas’im, ROT Bane has substantially increased force power for force augmentation as well as insane physical augmentation stemming from orbalisk secretions in his bloodstream and has fought in an orbalisk bloodlusted fury where he allowed his physical exertions to become an embodiment of the dark side power he wielded, and in DOE he is faster than Zannah could’ve ever imagined and his speed caught Zannah off guard despite Zannah being capable of perceiving lightning in slow motion. So yeah, Bane is faster than Dooku, quite noticeably in fact.

And Dooku casually meeting the speed of Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time? He fought that duo three times and in none of them did he do what you were mentioning. The first time was on geonosis when Anakin and Obi-Wan were considerably pre-prime and he fought them one at a time. The second time was on Oba Diah where they alternated offensives the entire time and maybe both engaged him at the same time for two to four seconds in that entire duel, and Dooku was pressed into doing acrobatics and actually retreated from that fight so he was hardly doing it casually. Their third duel was in ROTS where they both engaged him very briefly and he gave ground, then they talked and both engaged him briefly again while he gave ground, then Dooku didn’t even engage Obi-Wan in martial combat for the rest of the fight, keeping him out of the fight with his Force powers, then Anakin defeated him 1v1.

And yes, Bane has better feats of unpredictability than Dooku. Bane was able to outmaneuver a BM amped Raskta Lsu and floor her, and Raskta was the most skilled martial artist in the Jedi order, cut down hordes of Sith at once, had an echani penchant for predicting the moves of her opponents and allies, all of which would be compounded with battle meditation, and BM amped Raskta possessed noticeably greater speed than Grievous (as shown by her landing six strikes on Bane before he could close the distance between them while charging so fast he would’ve blitzed a non-BM amped Farfalla when Farfalla had an even greater distance to respond to Bane with). And this was Bane’s style at his most simplistic before he retooled it to be far more unpredictable. Sure Dooku has fought with and been compared to Windu, Anakin, and Obi-Wan, but this doesn’t make Dooku more or as unpredictable than Bane when his style doesn’t employ much unpredictability while Bane’s style is largely built around it, and it doesn’t make Dooku faster when Bane has noticeably greater speed feats.

Destin Extase wrote:Oh they won’t, they’ll be even more devastating.
Except they won’t… at all. Dooku doesn’t rely on any lightsaber form in combat other than Makashi and views such practices with disdain, and doesn’t possess any inside knowledge on Zannah’s form that Bane didn’t possess. Much of your argument falls completely flat when it’s based on Dooku having some special inside knowledge on Zannah that Bane didn’t have, which is a completely ridiculous idea in and of itself, since unlike Dooku Bane is actually a practicing high level master of soresu, and everything there is to know about saberstaffs, and was actually Zannah’s master. Dooku has no inside knowledge on Zannah that would bring him to greater benefit than Bane, and the sooner you realize this, the easier it will be for you to understand Zannah’s superiority in all-out combat over Dooku.

Destin Extase wrote:So you believe.
Well when she’s already demonstrated the ability to do so against a more physically overwhelming and overall greater offensive duelist than Dooku, and when her style has no particular weaknesses to Dooku’s style given her own emphasis on precision and footwork, I’d say its very well established from the evidence we are given that she could accomplish this.

Destin Extase wrote:It doesn’t matter, Lightsaber combat, force power, perhaps a combination of both will end her, plain and simple.
When you’re claiming Dooku can overwhelm Zannah’s defenses quicker than she can use her sorcery… it kinda does actually matter if he’s overwhelmed defenses as good as Zannah’s in such a period of time… since you know… you need evidence to support assertions. If assertions aren’t grounded in evidence, then they clearly are not plain and simple.

Destin Extase wrote:He does have the same source material, so answered.
No he doesn’t. He isn’t confirmed to have access to Freedon Nadd’s holocron, so he really doesn’t, and you claiming that he has this source material is completely unsubstantiated,

Destin Extase wrote:Secondly Bane himself had no knowledge of how to defend against illusions because he had no “talent” in it.  Let’s not forget that this familiarity didn’t do shit for him.
Bane wasn’t talented in the art of sorcery, just because he doesn’t have talent with it doesn’t mean he can’t study it to look for defenses against it, which he is stated to have done. And once again, Dooku has demonstrated no talent for sorcery himself. Bane has actually employed illusions and rituals before, even if his talent is limited in that area, and that’s more than can be said for Dooku, AND unlike Dooku, Bane has demonstrated the ability to dispel illusions with ease before.

Destin Extase wrote:Dooku has a wealth of knowledge due to the Dark holocron, a holocron that made Exar Kun more powerful, he’s extensively studied Jedi arts and Sith, and even he became more powerful after becoming  A sith, where he learned Illusions.
Which contains mostly relatively primitive information, much of which Bane would’ve gleaned from Sorzus Syn’s holocron. Dooku and Bane might both have had ancient Sith knowledge (dark holocron and Sorzus Syn’s holocron) and Andeddu’s knowledge, but Bane has access to Nadd’s holocron which much of Zannah’s sorcery is derived from, and was the only one between them who ever used illusions (he made an illusory lightsaber hilt in the stone prison) or dispelled them with ease (like he did with the shadow assassins’ illusions of concealment.

Destin Extase wrote:Okay...
Concession on the point that Zannah’s failings on Tython in ROT don’t equate to failings for DOE Zannah… accepted.

Destin Extase wrote:Or she’ll be caught mid flip by TK because Unlike Bane, Dooku does integrate Force Powers into his arsenal freely and won’t charge like a bull.
“Charge like a bull”? I love how you describe Bane based on his brutish fighting style in ROT when his style is far more advanced in DOE, and clearly if you think he doesn’t integrate telekinesis into his fighting style, you never read his fight with Fohargh, his fight with Sirak and his droogs in the archives, his fight with Kas’im on Lehon, or ironically enough his fights with the Umbaran Shadow Assassins, his fight with ROT Zannah, and his fight with the Jedi in ROT. So even when Bane’s style was at his most brutish, which you are trying to use to lowball him despite it not applying to DOE Bane, Bane still integrated telekinetic attacks. And if Dooku throws her back with TK while she’s flipping, assuming it penetrates her barrier(which she’ll still have up since she’s in combat), so what? He will have just created even more distance between them for her to use her sorcery.

Destin Extase wrote:A ritual done in complete desperation, a ritual which wasn’t as complex as it was made out to be, if I’m honest.
Not as complex as it was made out to be? You have no quotes regarding the intricacies or processes of the ritual to substantiate that claim, whereas the text states that its a combination of multiple different techniques used in intricate patterns. And so what if it was done in desperation? The fact that Bane managed to perform the ritual while dealing with desperation alongside undescribable agony only makes the feat more impressive.

Destin Extase wrote:Illusions:

Bane’s willpower is based on your speculation that Anddedu was in fact in the Holocron, be it a mere fragment of him or perhaps his very spirit.

The facts are that Anddedu was only able to manifest his power and spirit on a much stronger Nexus, like Prakkith , and he had no way of actually doing anything anywhere esle, especially on a weak nexus on Korriban.

So even if Anddedu’s spirit was in there, he had no way of doing anything unless he could drain someone of their life force, had his corpse nearby, and was on a very strong nexus.

So, Bane overcoming Anddedu, isn’t as impressive as you make it out to be.

And thus one of Bane’s most impressive showings, is debunked.
His spirit was in the holocron as shown in Legacy when he manipulated Krayt’s vong growths, and when he transferred his spirit from his holocron. And your argument about the nexus may or may not have had a point otherwise, but its completely debunked by the fact that Andeddu’s holocron while Bane had it with him in his ship was still powerful enough to cause the collapse of numerous hyperspace lanes on Bane’s return journey from Prakith. And thus one of Bane’s most impressive showings, is further substantiated.

Destin Extase wrote:Continuing, Bane’s knowledge is, by his own admission, limited, where as Dooku has studied several holocrons containing knowledge of Illusions and even more powerful powers, one such holocron was able to make the darkest power in the galaxy “stronger”

Dooku is intimate with Force Illusions, he has a wealth of knowledge that makes him extremely powerful, and because, unlike Bane, he has studied Illusions, it’s very likely that someone who knows these abilities in and out would be able to mount a defense that, coupled with his great Willpower make him deadlier than even Bane.
Bane never said his knowledge was limited, just that his ability to actually employ sorcery was limited, and Dooku has demonstrated no more ability to employ sorcery than Bane has, and has not demonstrated willpower even near the same level as Bane’s.

Destin Extase wrote:Dueling:

Dooku outclasses Zannah, pure and simple, her style is at it’s core, completely defensive, which is good, but Dooku has fought the very best of his time, this and her lack of a fully developed offensive will be the end of her.

Unlike Kenobi, Anakin or Gen. Grievous all of whom have other forms under their belts, Zannah is just a proficient user of Soresu. Dooku will not need to use any special tactics against someone who only uses on form, a form he is intimately familiar with.
Which she can still use to hold him off until she employs her sorcery, and Dooku is certainly going to have to work very hard to overcome her defenses given how well she held out against Bane. Not quickly enough to keep her from using her sorcery in any respect.

Destin Extase wrote:He’s praised as an equal to Dooku, has dueled Yoda in what is regarded as a “stalemate” and a “force clash of titans”
Yoda was only using the Force defensively, and Dooku barely escaped that fight with his life. Even on Vjun Dooku was no match for Yoda.

Destin Extase wrote:He has casually dealt with Tholme and Bulq, the last of which has been stated to have perfected the seven forms and techniques.
Yeah, beating Tholme and Bulq isn’t a good enough feat to place him above Zannah.

Destin Extase wrote:She has no strong offense to push the Count back, and her defense will only expend energy against the Count, a man who could use the force to keep himself fighting for as long as he would need.
Her defense is designed around not expending energy… so no her fighting style isn’t going to tire her out, and Zannah can also use the Force to rejuvenate herself.

Destin Extase wrote:He has dealt with far more powerful and skilled opponents, and an even better soresu user.
The only one substantially above Zannah is Yoda, and Yoda defeated him. And Dooku never overcame Obi-Wan’s soresu. On Geonosis Obi-Wan was pre-prime and hadn’t made Soresu his focus yet. On Oba Diah, Obi-Wan was in an offensive dueling stance and thus not fighting defensively. On the Invisible Hand, Dooku dispatched Obi-Wan with his telekinesis.

Destin Extase wrote:If, however, you still doubt Dooku’s ability to break through Zannah’s defenses, then Dooku will immediately recognize this and rely on his powers with great fervor. He’ll do exactly to her, what he did to Kenobi, however unlike Kenobi, Zannah has no one to save her.
Dooku ragdolling Zannah is perhaps the most unsubstantiated thing that has been said in this entire debate. Zannah is on par with Bane, who outstrips Dooku, in telekinesis, and has shielded herself from the disintegration of everything around her as a child with no training. Dooku isn’t ragdolling Zannah for shit.

Destin Extase wrote:Force Powers:
Zannah has nothing. absolutely nothing on Dooku in this regard, Dooku has vastly superior Telekinetic prowess and can casually dismiss her own blasts.

She has shown no real raw power to meet Dooku’s superior ability, and though she can block lightning with her saber, her use of athletic moves may end with her being thrown about mid flip by Dooku, who consistently uses Force Powers along with his saber attacks .

Zannah has nothing here to show, Ragdolling Lucia?  Dooku has send several pikes back with a push. Tking a distracted Bane and slamming him to a wall? Dooku has sent cruisers flying with ease.
Zannah’s parity with Bane, who collapsed the temple of the ancients so far beneath his peak in power, is more than enough to say that Zannah can at the very least defend against Dooku’s telekinesis, and Dooku moving corroded cruisers (which is just another term for ship in that book) doesn’t prove he can press any substantial telekinetic edge against her.

Destin Extase wrote:Zannah is outmatched, and outskilled  by Dooku, her illusions may have worked on someone who had no talent with them, but as someone who does, as someone who is counted among the greats of Legends, as someone who got up right after Talzin drained him within an inch of his life, as someone who survived Sidious’ TK, as someone with willpower beyond that of many, Dooku will survive, and this time, Zannah won’t have her tendrils to save her.
Zannah has coped with an offensive even greater than Dooku’s and has been able to bust out her illusions regardless, Bane is counted among Sidious’s most powerful predecessors, Bane has access to the source material for Zannah’s sorcery, Dooku has demonstrated no more talent with sorcery than Bane has, Bane was aware Zannah had sorcery, and Bane has superior willpower to Dooku. Unlike her fight with Bane, Zannah won’t need her tendrils.

Destin Extase wrote:It’s interesting how you shy away from all out, and attempt to draw me into debating everything separately, I commend you on the attempt but it didn’t work.
My entire argument is based on the premise of how Zannah’s force powers and dueling capabilities work together, so I don’t know what the flying fuck you’re talking about.

Destin Extase wrote:Dooku is simply more well rounded, more intelligent, more skilled and more powerful than Zannah could ever hope to be, he has an answer to whatever she brings. And will end her.
If not with the blade, then with the force, if not with the force, then with the blade.
It is Zannah who is more powerful than Dooku, skilled and intelligent enough to hold Dooku off, and she has an answer to whatever Dooku brings while Dooku cannot prevent Zannah from using her sorcery or defend against it. Dooku will be ended and not in a particularly close fight either.

Destin Extase wrote:Dooku is simply more well rounded, more intelligent, more skilled and more powerful than Zannah could ever hope to be, he has an answer to whatever she brings. And will end her.
If not with the blade, then with the force, if not with the force, then with the blade.

Conclusion
Lightsaber abilities
The arguments being given for Dooku easily defeating Zannah are based on “his fights with Obi-Wan”, in which he never overwhelmed peak Obi-Wan’s soresu with martial ability, him “having a variety of techniques”, which he doesn’t use given his pure makashi approach, “his knowledge giving him some special understanding of Zannah’s technique that exceeds Bane’s”, which is nonsense since Bane understood Zannah’s fighting style better than Dooku ever could, “Dooku’s finesse is more effective than Bane’s sloppiness”, which is untrue given that Bane practices his moves to the point of flawless replication, “his victory over better duelists such as Ventress, Grievous, and Sora and Tholme”, who aren’t on Zannah’s level as a duelist, and “his fighting style stacking up well against Zannah’s style”, which is also wrong since Zannah’s fighting style also possesses an emphasis on footwork and precision as well as her simplicity meaning she’s less likely to make mistakes in her fighting style.

Darth Zannah already defended against a greater offensive duelist than Dooku in Darth Bane. Consider that in POD Bane was driving saberstaff Kas’im into a desperate retreat, and saberstaff Kas’im was capable of stomping Trainee Bane in a near-blitz. ROT Bane also overwhelmed and outmaneuvered a BM amped Raskta (so noticeably faster than Grievous) and threw her on her back with his offensive martial capability, before driving an unamped Raskta (so still roughly Grievous level speed) along with two other Jedi back at once. Bane’s Raskta feats are extraordinarily significant because Windu, Dooku, and Obi-Wan, despite their superiority over Grievous as duelists have never driven him into a retreat with their offensives, undermining Grievous but not demonstrating the offensive ability to drive him into a retreat, and Obi-Wan’s defenses were being overloaded by Grievous’s sheer speed, and Bane was overwhelming Raskta Lsu once when she was substantially above Grievous’s speed, and once when Raskta had help from two other Jedi. Considering DOE Bane is substantially above ROT Bane as an offensive duelist (as the beginning of his fight with DOE Zannah shows he would’ve instantly beat ROT Zannah while ROT Zannah lasted a little while against ROT Bane), and very substantially above POD Bane as an offensive duelists, DOE Bane is a greater offensive duelist than Dooku, and the fact that Zannah survived Bane’s offensive even after she was put on her back, Zannah’s ability to contend with a greater offensive duelist than Dooku suggests she can capably defend against him. The only case in which this wouldn’t be valid is if Zannah’s fighting style somehow stacked up poorly against Dooku’s, which it doesn’t given her own focus on precision and footwork, which have been substantiated; precision by Zannah using angular deflection to deflect Bane’s power blows, and footwork by Zannah dodging blasts of lightning aimed at her boots while advancing on Bane. If Dooku is piercing her guard it won’t be easy, and it will take a considerable amount of time and effort for him to do so.

Force abilities
The arguments for Dooku besting Zannah in the Force have been “Dooku is a stronger telekinetic to the point where he can casually ragdoll Zannah”, which doesn’t hold when Zannah shares telekinetic parity with Darth Bane who is above Dooku as a telekinetic and when Zannah has an insane barrier feat as a child, “Dooku integrates telekinesis in his sequences unlike Bane”, which doesn’t hold true when Bane integrates telekinesis in almost all of his fights even when his fighting method is at its most brutish and most focused on physical combat, “Dooku has the willpower to counter her sorcery because he got back up on Dathomir”, which doesn’t hold true when the pain Dooku experienced before pushing through was nowhere near the pain Bane was experiencing while doing something harder than standing, “Dooku knows Zannah will use sorcery because Bane made an indirect mention to her sorcery in book of the Sith”, which isn’t a legitimate argument because no particularly useful information can be gleaned from that small reference and Dooku may not even recognize who Zannah is to begin with, “Dooku’s knowledge base gives him some special knowledge about Zannah’s sorcery Bane didn’t have”, which doesn’t hold since unlike Dooku Bane actually had the source material for Zannah’s sorcery and was actively looking for a way to counter it, and “Bane had no talent for sorcery while Dooku does”, which again doesn’t hold when Dooku has demonstrated no more talent in Bane with sorcery.

Darth Zannah beats Dooku with the force because first of all she can at the very least defend against Dooku’s telekinetic offensive. Zannah has parity with Bane in telekinesis because telekinesis would be a rather pointless weapon for him to use against her since she could defend against it, her telekinetic attack against Bane in the stone prison, and due to her parity with Bane in force power paired with her demonstrated ability as a telekinetic savant. Bane’s temple of the ancients feat is one of the most impressive telekinetic feats in the mythos and Bane has grown much more powerful since then, while Dooku’s cruiser feat happens around his peak in a novel where the term cruiser is used interchangeably with the term “ship” (given that every ship on the landing platform is a “cruiser”, and that the Jedi take two “cruisers” that require four man crews each to transport a total of eight Jedi). I could argue Zannah being able to use her telekinesis for an offensive edge over Dooku given her parity with Bane, but arguing she can defend against Dooku’s telekinesis is all I really need to do here, which is further substantiated by her own barrier feat where she completely shielded herself from a force storm that reduced the forest around her to completely barren disintegrated ash. And with that barrier feat against lightning and the fact that Zannah could defend against Bane’s lightning with her lightsaber, which Bane is more powerful and versatile in than Dooku, Dooku’s lightning isn’t getting him anywhere in this fight either. So Zannah can definitely defend against Dooku’s lightning and telekinesis and those are really the only powers Dooku has demonstrated to be sufficiently combat effective for him to actually employ.

Zannah’s sorcery on the other hand is something she has that Dooku cannot defend against. Bane’s willpower exceeds Dooku’s first of all, which is something I have proven that my opponent has failed to prove. Secondly, alongside that Bane also has a higher tolerance to pain which means the initial pain of Zannah’s psychic attack would off balance Dooku more. Third of all, Dooku has no technique that would save him against Zannah’s sorcery that Bane himself did not possess. Yes Dooku was highly learned from the Jedi archives, the dark holocron, and Andeddu’s holocron, but Bane had much of the same knowledge from the spying device he put into the Jedi archives, Sorzus Syn’s holocron (who built off of the primitive Sith knowledge the dark holocron possessed), and Darth Andeddu’s holocron. The difference is that Bane would be expecting a sorcery attack from Zannah (and Bane’s indirect mention to Zannah’s sorcery isn’t enough for Dooku to go off of, and there’s no proof Dooku would even know who Zannah is when they fight), Bane has Nadd’s holocron which is the source material for much of Zannah’s sorcery, and he had access to Darth Revan’s holocron which also possessed knowledge that Dooku lacked (such as the vast amounts of knowledge from the Trayus academy and quite a bit of other stuff regarding rituals and sorcery), and not only did Bane actually possess the source material for Zannah’s sorcery but he is stated to have studied it extensively looking for a counter to Zannah’s sorcery because he knew his life would almost certainly one day depend on it and found none, whereas Dooku had no reason to specifically study how to counter such sorcery because he had no reason to expect he would ever face it. And Bane actually demonstrated a level of ability with illusions and dispelling them prior to his encounter with Zannah and has actually demonstrated the same amount of talent if not more than Dooku in the art of Sith sorcery. There is no reason why Dooku would be able to perform as well against Zannah’s sorcery as Bane did, and with all of this in mind he won’t be able to overcome her sorcery before her sorcery overcomes him and drives him to the point of madness, which as hard as it would be to picture such a poised charismatic gentleman going batshit insane, that’s what would happen if Zannah hit him with her spells of madness.

All-out
So how does this all come together? Zannah is capable of defending against Dooku for an extraordinary period of time as her fight with DOE Bane demonstrates her defensive dueling capabilities to be on such a level. If Dooku overcomes her in lightsaber combat (which I don’t even view as being a forgone conclusion in a pure lightsaber duel given how their fighting styles stack up), it is going to take a lot of time and a lot of effort. Add this to the fact that Dooku’s telekinetic and lightning based abilities won’t get him anywhere due to her ability to defend against those powers in greater magnitude from Bane, and that gives Zannah more than enough time to bring her sorcery to heel. She has already demonstrated the ability to gather her sorcery against a more pressing offensive duelist in Bane and her fighting style is based around energy conservation so she’ll definitely be able to gather sorcery for her attacks while dueling Dooku, and Zannah has demonstrated that she only needs the briefest opening in the melee to conjure her spells in if she isn’t gathering her power while dueling. All she would need to do would be to flip backwards in such an open area to create some space and then she’d have no problem using her sorcery against Dooku. And even if she couldn’t pull either of these things off (which she definitely can), Dooku’s frequent pauses to incorporate Makashi would give her enough of an opening to employ her sorcery regardless. Once Zannah employs her sorcery against Dooku, Dooku will fall as he has not demonstrated the necessary strength of will or any of Bane’s relative advantages over such an attack Bane was not privy to, and he has no unique way of countering Zannah’s sorcery that Bane himself didn’t possess.

All things considered, Zannah can absolutely hold Dooku off long enough to use her sorcery, and once she does Dooku has no answer for it. Dooku becomes a snarling raving madman trying to claw his own eyes out, his vocalizations reduced to animalistic sounds, and right when Christopher Lee’s glorious voice leaves Dooku and returns into the Force, Zannah decapitates Dooku with one of her blades and leaves his corpse smote upon the ground.


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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by King Joker on Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:30 pm

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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Shadeslayer on Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:02 pm

tl;dr

Xpussy is a shit debater, and he got raped by DMB.

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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Thu May 05, 2016 11:45 pm

Yeah I kinda wanna readress something about this supposedly much greater knowledge than Bane Dooku has...

First we have this:



Contrasted with this:
Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:For the past four days Bane had played the gatekeeper's games in an attempt to unlock the secrets of eternal life. He had delved deep into Andeddu's Holocron, accomplishing in less than a week what would have taken others months or even years. He had suffered through the tedious lessons; he had listened to the tiresome philosophical rants of the holographic image. He had learned nothing new about the Force, though the gatekeeper's words had revealed much about Darth Andeddu's personality and beliefs.

Like many of the ancient Sith, he was cruel, arrogant, self-centered, and shortsighted. His lessons mirrored those of Bane's instructors at the Sith Academy on Korriban; lessons Bane had rejected decades ago as flawed. He had moved beyond their teachings. His understanding of the dark side had evolved. In creating the Rule of Two, he had ushered in a new era for the Sith. He had transcended the limited understanding of men like Andeddu, and he was done listening to the gatekeeper's ignorant litany.

It would appear Bane's supremacy stands. Not that this matters much since this debate is essentially what it was before...

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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

Post by Emperordmb on Sat May 14, 2016 8:00 pm


The slaughter continues...

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Re: Count Dooku (Fated Xtasy) vs. Darth Zannah (Emperordmb)

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