The Hero of Tython VS A'Sharad Hett and Shaak Ti(1V2 Debate)

This is a debate between Sinious(HOT) and A team that consists of Bantha(Koon) and Myself(Ti)

The Hero of Tython as of: the end of the Jedi Knight quest line




A'Sharad Hett as of : Revenge of the Sith


and

Shaak Ti as of: Revenge of the Sith


Location: Jedi Temple.

Lightsabers

Forces Powers

All-Out!

Rules are as follows.

No outside points/comments/arguments will be taken into consideration.

Comment on who you think will win(character-wise) No trolling

No time restrictions or character limitations for us.

Have fun.

Let's get this show on the road.

So. Here is my case for ROTS Ti and Koon taking the win, it's almost one, so this is going to be short.

In Sabers: Shaak Ti is renowned as one of the most accomplished Lightsaber duelist of her era, with various sources citing her as an absolute master of Form II, Makashi and Form Iv, Ataru. Her grace with the blade is regarded as second only to Dooku's and in that same novel, Shaak Ti is listed among "greatsword beings" which mention the names of Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Mace Windu, Depa Billaba, Dooku, Yoda and of course Ti herself.

One of her best accolades, is that only the best of the best, could hope to best her in battle.

She has fought for a respectable stint against General Grevious(according to her SW databank) despite the fact that She was  exhausted from fighting droids. it should be noted that amongst the fighters that Grevious beat, were the Jedi K'kruhk and Aayla Secura.

In her fight with the Magna-Guards during her escape from grevious, she showcased herself to be a follower of the core tenets of Makashi and Ataru, by drawing the battle out and then unleashing a series of savage blows. further displaying her mastery of her forms.

However, while i find these feats impressive, they are the tip of the iceberg. these last two feats are among her best and most impressive feats.

Taking on an army of Magna-Guards:

Shaak Ti single handedly holds back dozens of Magna-Guards with her lightsaber, and when she loses it due to a blow to her hand, Shaak Ti literally tanks the Magna-Guard blows with her bare hands and manipulates a Magna-Guard to block in coming strikes(a decent strength feat) she proceeds to use a Magna-Guards electro staff and then slaughter a few of them with precise and deadly shots, at one point she even broke one's head with her knee!

Throughout that fight, Ti demonstrates her proficiency with Jar'Kai and expertly holds back the Magna-Guards and eventually, deadlocks with EIGHT of them.

Shaak Ti is a Master duelist and a challenge for anyone to beat. I'd dare say she has better accolades than the HoT.

Force Power.

While i don't think Ti has enough Force Power to one shot the HoT, i do think that the HoT's lack of showings in this area will pretty much end in Ti and Koon's favor.

Ti is regarded as having "Legendary Strength within the force" even among the best of the council, she is stated as being "revered" by the Order. due to either her strength or lightsaber mastery(idk which)

As of RotS Ti's offensive powers are not as developed as the her TFU counterpart. that said she is still an impressive force to be reckoned with.

Shaak Ti as of Rots has done the following(will post scans tomorrow)

- TK'ed a bridge under water alongside Obi-wan and Anakin with such force that the bridge was literally destroyed.

- after the aforementioned event, Shaak Ti proceeds to plug the hole that she and her fellow Jedi made all by herself and presumably holds it until the end of the battle.

- She has floored a giant Wookie during the battle of brental.

- She constantly uses the force to floor her opponents.

And much, much more.

Okay so first off im sorry about the delay and the switch. Koon really wasn't working out and since I think you would prefer just a character switch over waiting an eternity, I switched to Jedi Master A'sharad Hett.

A'sharad Hett was trained by An'ya Kuro as a padawan and became one of the finest Jedi Master's of the orders day. He has proven himself time and again as being on of the finest swordsman at the time.

His style, in my opinion, is purely Ataru. Although it could also be Niman I think Ataru is the more likely option. He doesn't jump around a lot like a cookie cutter Ataru wielder but instead has a very foot work based fighting style. He incorporates physical strikes on a regular basis, one of the markings of an Ataru wielder and he prefers duel wielding which further indicates Ataru, although he is still skilled with a single blade.

A'sharad Hett is a highly skilled duelist, he has defeated the infamous bounty hunter Aurra Sing and a young Anakin Skywalker using blunt instruments. He also fought Obi-wan Kenobi Post Rots and although he lost, it was a very close match.

A'sharad Hett also isn't afraid to fight dirty, when in a pinch he will use blunt instruments as weapons which probably stems from him being highly skilled in ghaffi stick combat.

He is also very highly skilled in h2h combat which further increases his use of physical strikes.

Over all, while A'sharad Hett is mainly a lightsaber duelist, he is a very high caliber one, and together with Shaak ti, I think they can take the Hero down.

Sorry for taking so long.

Hero of Tython has accomplished lots of combat related things ever since he stepped into the Jedi Temple which is why he has been praised by the jedi around him since he was a padawan. His wisdom, mastery of the force and dueling skills are unparalleled in the order. Hero's accolades are very impressive mainly because they are quite specific about the information they give as his accolades prove that he is above many jedi that have very impressive feats. Also, HoT received most of these accolades just as a padawan which should prove how prodigious he is. HoT is possibly the strongest jedi of TOR era. It has been hinted by several important characters in SWTOR. Some examples:

Lord Scourge who has already met Revan and Meetra Surik said: "You are the Jedi's finest."

But I'd like to quote Neph here as he explained this one perfectly: “You are stronger than any Jedi I have known” - Bengal Morr after his defeat. A pretty good accolade considering Morr was training on Coruscant with the Jedi's 'greatest' as he calls them, and was the padawan of the prominent Jedi Orgus Din. Even as a padawan the Hero was one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order.

Hero of Tython by the nature of SWTOR, is a close ranged combatant which is why in most of his cutscenes, he uses his lightsaber to harm his opponents and therefor, we don't see him using his force power that often. However, this should not mean that he is weak in the force. Even though he has faced lots of powerhouses, he never had a problem defending against their attacks or matching them in whatever way they approach him(Not including the Emperor). Also, when he is forced to use TK, he was capable of pulling down portions of ceiling to collapse four tunnels.

HoT due to being a knight type character, uses his force powers defensively and engage his enemies with his melee weapon. More importantly, he is confirmed to be superior to the likes of Satele Shan and Barsenthor(both have very impressive force feats).

HoT has defeated many powerful opponents but I'll sum it up and list his most impressive victories.

Act I(Waaaaaay before his prime):

- Lord Praven who killed Bela Kiwiiks(council member) and Master Usma(one of the best jedi of her time)

- The Sand Demon who literally hunts Krayt Dragons. HoT defeated the beast while in a disadvantageous position.

- Darth Angral who has many many accolades but most importantly, he gave Darth Baras a good fight.

Closer to his prime:

- Lord Scourge who already had tons of feats before becoming the Wrath and he has grown a lot more stronger after that. He has killed 1100 jedi/sith and he was only sent after the very strong ones that got the attention of the Emperor. The fact that he was able to stalemate a guy who is powerful enough to cause fear in the hearts of Dark Council members says a lot.


- Tol Braga. Here Imma go ahead an quote Neph again: One of the strongest Jedi of the Order. He defeated a Dark Councillor in single combat after several days of fighting, indicating massive stores of power and stamina. The Hero can also dominate his mind, which is a really damn good feat since Braga is the only Jedi known to have thrown off the Emperor's mental domination completely by himself. Braga was shown to be resisting Vitiates lightning storm rather well in the Act 2 fight.

- Sith Emperor who needs no introduction. Now we know that Emperor Vitiate was weakened. But even though he was weakened, no other jedi dared to join HoT to face him. Every other jedi in the order were considered to be non factors against this incarnation of Vitiate where they were confident that HoT by himself was enough to defeat him.





HoT is fast enough to speed blitz multiple sith warriors. He is powerful enough to face beings like Sel Makor and Darth Vitiate. He is skilled enough to duel Lord Scourge. He also has immense TP powers as he is able to dominate Tol Braga's mind while Braga is amped by the Emperor himself.

HoT, overall as a combatant, is a couple tiers above the individuals that'll face him in this matchup and teaming up against him won't really do any good especially since teaming up doesn't usually double the powers of individuals in SW. A team consisted of weak members always performs poorly against stronger individuals.

Sinious wrote: Lord Scourge who has already met Revan and Meetra Surik said: "You are the Jedi's finest."

An impressive quote, however, at this point Meetra was not at her peak due to losing the perks that came with being a Wound. Not mention that Scourge hadn't met other jedi like Gnost, Satele or Aryn Leneer who took on Malgus. while it is certainly impressive that Scourge praises the hero after having met Revan and Meetra, Meetra was not as powerful as in her Kotor form.

But I'd like to quote Neph here as he explained this one perfectly: “You are stronger than any Jedi I have known” - Bengal Morr after his defeat. A pretty good accolade considering Morr was training on Coruscant with the Jedi's 'greatest' as he calls them, and was the padawan of the prominent Jedi Orgus Din. Even as a padawan the Hero was one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order.

A good accolade, but what exactly has Bengal Morr have going for him? simply training with the best doesn't make one powerful. Rosh Penin and Johun are both great examples, they were both trained by battlemasters, Rosh trained with Jaden Korr, yet neither of them were anywhere near Jaden and Bane respectably.

Another thing i'd like to touch on, is the fact that the quote is vague. He says strong, are we talking about physical strength? force strength? strength as in skill? I'm not questioning the quote, but rather what it's implying. I need context lol

Hero of Tython by the nature of SWTOR, is a close ranged combatant which is why in most of his cutscenes, he uses his lightsaber to harm his opponents and therefor, we don't see him using his force power that often. However, this should not mean that he is weak in the force. Even though he has faced lots of powerhouses, he never had a problem defending against their attacks or matching them in whatever way they approach him(Not including the Emperor). Also, when he is forced to use TK, he was capable of pulling down portions of ceiling to collapse four tunnels.

Awesome TK feat, it's not above what a person with "Legendary strength in the force"(taken from Star Wars: Adventures) like Shaak Ti can do. she has, before her prime of TFU, held a number of rubble in place against the ocean of kamino and together with Anakin and obi-Wan they completely destroyed a bridge with their Telekinetic prowess.(Source. Star Wars: Kamino)

HoT due to being a knight type character, uses his force powers defensively and engage his enemies with his melee weapon. More importantly, he is confirmed to be superior to the likes of Satele Shan and Barsenthor(both have very impressive force feats).

Could you please provide the quote? I personally question whether or not the hero is actually superior to Satele's TK, mostly because i have yet to see him display the same destructive capabilities with it.

Anyway.

Shaak Ti is a jedi consular(Power of the Jedi Sourcebook), a jedi of legendary strength in the force(TCW:A) and one of the most accomplished duelists of the Order(Star Wars: The Clone Wars Magazine) She's a master of the force and of the blade. She's more than a challenge for the Hero. Adding Hett, who has dueled evenly with Post RotS Obi-Wan and this is going to be difficult.

Act I(Waaaaaay before his prime):

- Lord Praven who killed Bela Kiwiiks(council member) and Master Usma(one of the best jedi of her time)

Is Bela Kiwiiks skilled? has she done anything of note to be considered above the average Jedi? A title doesn't mean much, i mean, i'm not trying to be a dick, but just look at Coleman Trebor... I uh.. i rest my case lol. But regardless, it's a good accolade, just curious about Bela is all.

- The Sand Demon who literally hunts Krayt Dragons. HoT defeated the beast while in a disadvantageous position.

Well that's impressive.

- Darth Angral who has many many accolades but most importantly, he gave Darth Baras a good fight.

Didn't one of them lose to Satele or a random Jedi master?

Closer to his prime:

- Lord Scourge who already had tons of feats before becoming the Wrath and he has grown a lot more stronger after that. He has killed 1100 jedi/sith and he was only sent after the very strong ones that got the attention of the Emperor. The fact that he was able to stalemate a guy who is powerful enough to cause fear in the hearts of Dark Council members says a lot.

Well, fighting off the guy who beat Grevious and Darth Vader evenly for a respectable amount of time also says a lot. Not to mention that Shaak Ti held her own for a "respectable stint"(Source. SW:DATABANKS: Shaak Ti) is also impressive considering that the entire group of jedi had lost their entire clone forces and had to fight the droids to get to safety(Source. SW:DATABANKS. Daak Baakman and Shaak Ti) not to mention that she held her own after Aayla(a powerful jedi in her own right) was tossed with ease, while Shaak Ti lasted longer than K'kruhk and Aayla.

- Tol Braga. Here Imma go ahead an quote Neph again: One of the strongest Jedi of the Order. He defeated a Dark Councillor in single combat after several days of fighting, indicating massive stores of power and stamina. The Hero can also dominate his mind, which is a really damn good feat since Braga is the only Jedi known to have thrown off the Emperor's mental domination completely by himself. Braga was shown to be resisting Vitiates lightning storm rather well in the Act 2 fight.

And how powerful was this Dark Councilor? have we heard of him? Didn't Braga go mad because of the Emperor's mental assault? isn't that the reason he's actually fighting the HoT?

- Sith Emperor who needs no introduction. Now we know that Emperor Vitiate was weakened. But even though he was weakened, no other jedi dared to join HoT to face him. Every other jedi in the order were considered to be non factors against this incarnation of Vitiate where they were confident that HoT by himself was enough to defeat him.

Well it helps that Scourge had a vision of the HoT beating vitty i would say. A good feat and accolade none the less. Still, while i don't think Vitiate is incompetent with the saber i don't think that we would be right to assume he's a master of the blade. Shaak ti has been stated to be one of the most accomplished duelists of the order, a master of Ataru and Makashi as stated by the TFU novel(not that i'm using feats from there, but rather just to reinforce her mastery of the forms) the clone wars: adventures video game and several sourcebooks. Likewise, A'sharad Hett himself is a masterful duelist and has fought against powerful warriors like Kenobi and Aurra Sing and Anakin Skywalker. These two are confirmed master duelists with incredible feats with the sword and with the force. He may be powerful but the lack of information on his feats and the fact that most of his opponents are impressive, yet not that high tier makes this a bit of a no brainer. Shaak Ti and A'sharad are masters of the blade, who've fought other masters of the blade.They are dangerous alone, but deadly together and more than a match for the HoT.

Fated Xtasy wrote:

An impressive quote, however, at this point Meetra was not at her peak due to losing the perks that came with being a Wound. Not mention that Scourge hadn't met other jedi like Gnost, Satele or Aryn Leneer who took on Malgus. while it is certainly impressive that Scourge praises the hero after having met Revan and Meetra, Meetra was not as powerful as in her Kotor form.

Meetra is kinda irrelevant since Revan is mentioned there as well. Also, I'm pretty sure Scourge had A LOT of information about the order, especially about Satele Shan the Grand Master. The Elite of the Empire even had detailed information about her like her relation to Revan(This is even before she becomes the GM). He says Jedi's finest, not the finest jedi I ever encountered.

A good accolade, but what exactly has Bengal Morr have going for him? simply training with the best doesn't make one powerful. Rosh Penin and Johun are both great examples, they were both trained by battlemasters, Rosh trained with Jaden Korr, yet neither of them were anywhere near Jaden and Bane respectably.

Another thing i'd like to touch on, is the fact that the quote is vague. He says strong, are we talking about physical strength? force strength? strength as in skill? I'm not questioning the quote, but rather what it's implying. I need context lol

You miss the point. He trained with the best so he knows the best and so his opinion is very important. It doesn't matter if he has feats. His knowledge of the order is what matters here since all he does is provide an accolade.

He says it after HoT defeats him so its safe to assume that he is talking about overall combat capabilities.

Awesome TK feat, it's not above what a person with "Legendary strength in the force"(taken from Star Wars: Adventures) like Shaak Ti can do. she has, before her prime of TFU, held a number of rubble in place against the ocean of kamino and together with Anakin and obi-Wan they completely destroyed a bridge with their Telekinetic prowess.(Source. Star Wars: Kamino)

HoT in his dark side version ragdolls Vitiate but since we take his light side version more seriously, simply resisting Vitiate's TK proves how powerful he is in this regard. Vitiate was weakened but it doesn't matter since he was still powerful enough to collapse the dark temple. So when a guy who can collapse HUGE buildings couldn't bring HoT down, why would Ti or Hett be able to do it?

Could you please provide the quote? I personally question whether or not the hero is actually superior to Satele's TK, mostly because i have yet to see him display the same destructive capabilities with it.

Anyway.

Shaak Ti is a jedi consular(Power of the Jedi Sourcebook), a jedi of legendary strength in the force(TCW:A) and one of the most accomplished duelists of the Order(Star Wars: The Clone Wars Magazine) She's a master of the force and of the blade. She's more than a challenge for the Hero. Adding Hett, who has dueled evenly with Post RotS Obi-Wan and this is going to be difficult.

“You are our greatest warrior… and our best hope." - Satele Shan herself. I also provided other quotes in this thread that suggests his superiority over every other jedi in the order.

And as mentioned above, HoT going toe to toe with Vitiate puts him above Satele TK wise. After all, HoT was the one who was sent to face Vitiate for a reason.

Is Bela Kiwiiks skilled? has she done anything of note to be considered above the average Jedi? A title doesn't mean much, i mean, i'm not trying to be a dick, but just look at Coleman Trebor... I uh.. i rest my case lol. But regardless, it's a good accolade, just curious about Bela is all.

Not much information on her as far as I know but still, being a council member is an important detail. A few rotten eggs won't demolish the importance of it. If she had actual showings, this would have been a more impressive feat for HoT but right now, he before his prime has defeated a guy who defeated a council member. Its still pretty good. And again, we also have Master Usma.

Well that's impressive.

Didn't one of them lose to Satele or a random Jedi master?

He was caught unarmed iirc. Later, he sends the dude flying with the force.

Well, fighting off the guy who beat Grevious and Darth Vader evenly for a respectable amount of time also says a lot. Not to mention that Shaak Ti held her own for a "respectable stint"(Source. SW:DATABANKS: Shaak Ti) is also impressive considering that the entire group of jedi had lost their entire clone forces and had to fight the droids to get to safety(Source. SW:DATABANKS. Daak Baakman and Shaak Ti) not to mention that she held her own after Aayla(a powerful jedi in her own right) was tossed with ease, while Shaak Ti lasted longer than K'kruhk and Aayla.

Can you provide context and details about this so I too can provide with a better judgement.

And how powerful was this Dark Councilor? have we heard of him? Didn't Braga go mad because of the Emperor's mental assault? isn't that the reason he's actually fighting the HoT?

Tol Braga is one of the top dogs of SWTOR Jedi. I'm starting to think that you believe Ti is above any SWTOR jedi. But yeah, he defeated Darth Sajar. Again, the title by itself does hold significance. If not, this line of thought will lead us to a very carthageish way of perceiving things.

His fight lasting 3 days hints great endurance and stamina.

Well, he says he broke free but idk perhaps its a Revan/Malak kinda situation?


BTW, I just saw this and loved the Vitty wank lmao:

"He destroyed my will with a thought. And I am strong in the Force—but it wasn't enough."

Well it helps that Scourge had a vision of the HoT beating vitty i would say. A good feat and accolade none the less. Still, while i don't think Vitiate is incompetent with the saber i don't think that we would be right to assume he's a master of the blade. Shaak ti has been stated to be one of the most accomplished duelists of the order, a master of Ataru and Makashi as stated by the TFU novel(not that i'm using feats from there, but rather just to reinforce her mastery of the forms) the clone wars: adventures video game and several sourcebooks. Likewise, A'sharad Hett himself is a masterful duelist and has fought against powerful warriors like Kenobi and Aurra Sing and Anakin Skywalker. These two are confirmed master duelists with incredible feats with the sword and with the force. He may be powerful but the lack of information on his feats and the fact that most of his opponents are impressive, yet not that high tier makes this a bit of a no brainer. Shaak Ti and A'sharad are masters of the blade, who've fought other masters of the blade.They are dangerous alone, but deadly together and more than a match for the HoT.

Wait, just to make sure, are you comparing Shaak Ti to Vitiate? Even when weakened, Vitiate would stomp her pretty easily. On the other hand, HoT managed to defeat him.

Here are my 2 main arguments atm:

1) He defeated a guy who can collapse HUGE buildings and is still powerful enough to mindfuck anyone else in the order.

2) He is confirmed to be stronger than the likes of Barsen'thor and Satele Shan.


Now, one of the reasons I wanted to have this debate is because I sincerely believe that I can change your mind here and thats mainly because I know you respect the authors' intentions. HoT is intended to be the champion of SWTOR. He is the strongest of the protags and all his accolades and feats suggests this to us.

Well, honestly(in response to the last part) I'm starting to respect him a bit more. And I'm flattered you think of me like that. So thank you and you're succeeding lol.



Anyway I'll respond sooner this time I promise

Just so we're clear, you conceded and I kicked both your asses right?
The World should know of my/HoT's glory.

Lol I'm sorry for taking so long to respond. I needed todo a couple of RT's and respond to the other debate while simultaneously reading up on A'sharad.give me two more days. If I don't answer by then take it as an automatic concession. Again sorry

Deal.

Sinious wrote:Meetra is kinda irrelevant since Revan is mentioned there as well. Also, I'm pretty sure Scourge had A LOT of information about the order, especially about Satele Shan the Grand Master. The Elite of the Empire even had detailed information about her like her relation to Revan(This is even before she becomes the GM). He says Jedi's finest, not the finest jedi I ever encountered.

Regardless of the Information they have on the Order, they still don’t know how strong they are. Scourge can’t gauge the force strength of Aryn Leneer, Satele Shan, the Barsenthor, the council members or Gnost Dural or Ven Zallow or Kao Cen. The quote is kind of ambiguous IMO.

You miss the point. He trained with the best so he knows the best and so his opinion is very important. It doesn't matter if he has feats. His knowledge of the order is what matters here since all he does is provide an accolade.

I suppose, that’s true. still I’m not overly impressed with Bengal Morr. Good accolade i suppose.

He says it after HoT defeats him so its safe to assume that he is talking about overall combat capabilities.

Eh, that’s stretching it a bit i’d say, but none the less good quote.

HoT in his dark side version ragdolls Vitiate but since we take his light side version more seriously, simply resisting Vitiate's TK proves how powerful he is in this regard. Vitiate was weakened but it doesn't matter since he was still powerful enough to collapse the dark temple. So when a guy who can collapse HUGE buildings couldn't bring HoT down, why would Ti or Hett be able to do it?

Didn’t he have prep for that? Regardless Shaak Ti has plugged a hole using the force On Kamino. The hole was below the sea and therefore. the would be a great amount of force that would slam against that hole and Shaak Ti holding it for the entire duration of the battle of kamino is more than impressive

“You are our greatest warrior… and our best hope." - Satele Shan herself. I also provided other quotes in this thread that suggests his superiority over every other jedi in the order.

Good quote. Yet still ambiguous. Ki-Adi Mundi is thought to be the only Jedi in the entire Jedi temple to be capable of defeating Sharad Hett(this is coming from Yoda) I hardly doubt that puts him above the likes of Mace Windu, Dooku or even Yoda. Again a good quote, i agree and accept this as some great wank, he can’t be above all of the Jedi. I mean at the time sure, but you can’t honestly say he’d stomp Satele, Aryn or The Barsenthor :\

And as mentioned above, HoT going toe to toe with Vitiate puts him above Satele TK wise. After all, HoT was the one who was sent to face Vitiate for a reason.

Resisting a TK attack isn’t the same as being able to produce a powerful counter attack. We don’t know how that fight went. Everything is pretty much speculation. imo

Not much information on her as far as I know but still, being a council member is an important detail. A few rotten eggs won't demolish the importance of it. If she had actual showings, this would have been a more impressive feat for HoT but right now, he before his prime has defeated a guy who defeated a council member. Its still pretty good. And again, we also have Master Usma.

Well by that logic A’sharad held his own against someone(Aurra) who beat Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, a Jedi master of Legendary skill, several of the greatest warriors the Jedi had to offer and Obi-Wan who beat Anakin. Soooooooo yeah. Your pokemon is fire, mine’s water. Squirtle, squirtle.

He was caught unarmed iirc. Later, he sends the dude flying with the force.

lol kay

Can you provide context and details about this so I too can provide with a better judgement.

For which quotes?

Tol Braga is one of the top dogs of SWTOR Jedi. I'm starting to think that you believe Ti is above any SWTOR jedi.

With the exception of Satele, Vitty, Revan/Gollum(ew, but she’d take him in sabers)

But yeah, he defeated Darth Sajar. Again, the title by itself does hold significance. If not, this line of thought will lead us to a very carthageish way of perceiving things.

Titles aren’t a representation of power dude, i’d be singing another Tune if it was a a Dreaded Master because the title would mean something. Take  Ferus Olin for example, he technically never advanced past the rank of Apprentice, but he’s still managed to give Vader a fight on two occasions and beat the Grand Imperial Inquisitor. You can’t honestly say that any random Jedi Master or Sith Lord from the TOR era would give someone like Vader or Aurra or Obi-Wan a fight :\

His fight lasting 3 days hints great endurance and stamina.

Good feat.

Well, he says he broke free but idk perhaps its a Revan/Malak kinda situation?

I suppose so.

BTW, I just saw this and loved the Vitty wank lmao:

"He destroyed my will with a thought. And I am strong in the Force—but it wasn't enough."

lmao nice

Wait, just to make sure, are you comparing Shaak Ti to Vitiate? Even when weakened, Vitiate would stomp her pretty easily.

Not with a saber he wouldn’t. Which is what i’m trying to say, Vitiate isn’t on a high tier as a duelist.

On the other hand, HoT managed to defeat him.

In a match where we have no idea what happened, whether or not the HoT pressed Vitiate or vice versa or whether Vitiate just kept his distance. Fact is, we can only speculate about that fight.

Here are my 2 main arguments atm:

1) He defeated a guy who can collapse HUGE buildings and is still powerful enough to mindfuck anyone else in the order.

2) He is confirmed to be stronger than the likes of Barsen'thor and Satele Shan.

Now, one of the reasons I wanted to have this debate is because I sincerely believe that I can change your mind here and thats mainly because I know you respect the authors' intentions. HoT is intended to be the champion of SWTOR. He is the strongest of the protags and all his accolades and feats suggests this to us.

I respect that, so before i continue to my argument i want to clear this up. I’m not arguing that these quote are invalid, but rather that based his accolades have holes. Like the scourge one. I’m not suggesting that he isn’t the champion of the order that much is true. But, like with Anakin, I don’t believe the HoT or Anakin would out right butcher everyone in that era. I can understand the author's intention and i respect the HoT. SO when i say “ambiguous” I don’t say it to dismiss it(although it may seem like it) I say it because i would personally like more context on the quote. No disrespect meant.


Now on to my  main argument.

Even as 22bby Shaak Ti is thought to be a combat specialist
“formidable combat specialist”
—Star Wars fact file

Her lightsaber style is described as fluid and graceful(oh fuck me ataru)
“Shaak Ti’s lightsaber style was fluid and graceful, making the most of her enhanced spatial awareness. Few escaped her deadly, swirling blade.”
—Star Wars: Fact File

Shaak Ti is both revered by the entire order and is among the most accomplished in lightsaber combat and this is when she was in the Jedi order

“The Jedi revere Shaak Ti as one of the highest of their order and among the most accomplished in lightsaber combat”
—Star Wars: The Force Unleashed campaign guide.

As you can no doubt see, Shaak Ti is thought to be one of the best of her order. She’s fought against Grievous who has utterly destroyed Jedi who were decently powerful in their own right. While it wasn’t for as long as her fellow Jedi, Ki-Adi. It’s still worth noting that she and the other Jedi were forced to crashland and fight through droids. She’s fought a mercenary and a bounty hunter after having been shot right in the chest.
Shaak Ti could give the HoT a decent fight alone in sabers and maybe in force Powers. If we add A’sharad, someone who has contended with some of the best(contended, not bested) and you have a tag team which excels in Lightsaber combat. A’sharad has impressed Ki-Adi Mundi and Sharad Hett with his lightsaber skills and after, he even impresses the Dark Woman, his master.  

So what i’m mainly arguing here is one thing.

My team is the better swordsmen and have the Quotes that specifically say that they’re lightsaber masters and legendary force users. I’m not arguing that either of them would stomp, no. I believe that this team is pretty well equipped to deal with the HoT.

Fated Xtasy wrote:Regardless of the Information they have on the Order, they still don’t know how strong they are. Scourge can’t gauge the force strength of Aryn Leneer, Satele Shan, the Barsenthor, the council members or Gnost Dural or Ven Zallow or Kao Cen. The quote is kind of ambiguous IMO.

Perhaps.

I suppose, that’s true. still I’m not overly impressed with Bengal Morr. Good accolade i suppose.

Again its HoT you're meant to be impressed with, not Morr.

Eh, that’s stretching it a bit i’d say, but none the less good quote.

Interesting, how so? I mean when 2 people fight and person 1 defeats person 2, what could person 2 be referring to when he/she says to person 1 "You are stronger than anyone else I have known" if not combat related abilities?

Didn’t he have prep for that? Regardless Shaak Ti has plugged a hole using the force On Kamino. The hole was below the sea and therefore. the would be a great amount of force that would slam against that hole and Shaak Ti holding it for the entire duration of the battle of kamino is more than impressive

Vitiate? No, on the contrary, his prep for the other ritual backfired and weakened him.

What Shaak Ti has done is in no way comparable to Vitiate's feat.

Good quote. Yet still ambiguous. Ki-Adi Mundi is thought to be the only Jedi in the entire Jedi temple to be capable of defeating Sharad Hett(this is coming from Yoda) I hardly doubt that puts him above the likes of Mace Windu, Dooku or even Yoda. Again a good quote, i agree and accept this as some great wank, he can’t be above all of the Jedi. I mean at the time sure, but you can’t honestly say he’d stomp Satele, Aryn or The Barsenthor :\

I didn't say he'd stomp them. Especially not Thor. If Yoda said Ki Adi Mundi is the only one who can defeat Sidious and if Mundi had no limitations that contradicted what Yoda says, then it would be a legit accolade yes. But since that is not the case, your example is irrelevant to HoT's case.

But do you admit HoT's superiority over Satele?

Resisting a TK attack isn’t the same as being able to produce a powerful counter attack. We don’t know how that fight went. Everything is pretty much speculation. imo

We know the beginning and the ending of the fight. Vitiate tried to send HoT flying with his TK but only managed to force him back a few steps. Since Vitiate's TK was still vastly superior to Ti's TK even at that point, I'm not sure why you still think she could do anything to harm HoT with her telekinesis when Vitiate failed.

Well by that logic A’sharad held his own against someone(Aurra) who beat Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, a Jedi master of Legendary skill, several of the greatest warriors the Jedi had to offer and Obi-Wan who beat Anakin. Soooooooo yeah. Your pokemon is fire, mine’s water. Squirtle, squirtle.

I'm sorry but did Aurra beat them in their primes and on even ground?

Also, HoT didn't just defeat them, he outright blitzed them. So say what you wanna say but it is always impressive to blitz force-users who can defeat Jedi High Council members and its not the only time HoT speed blitzed sith warriors.

For which quotes?

"Well, fighting off the guy who beat Grevious and Darth Vader evenly for a respectable amount of time also says a lot." Are you referring to A'Sharrad vs Kenobi? I thought you were talking about Ti so I got confused.

Titles aren’t a representation of power dude, i’d be singing another Tune if it was a a Dreaded Master because the title would mean something. Take  Ferus Olin for example, he technically never advanced past the rank of Apprentice, but he’s still managed to give Vader a fight on two occasions and beat the Grand Imperial Inquisitor. You can’t honestly say that any random Jedi Master or Sith Lord from the TOR era would give someone like Vader or Aurra or Obi-Wan a fight :\

I never claimed that lol what are you talking about? I just said titles aren't completely irrelevant.

These feats by themselves don't put him above this duo. Im giving you these small feats to show you that HoT has a very consistent history as a combatant. HoT was so powerful and capable from day 1 that they sent him to defeat swarms of flesh raiders with a practice saber even when he first came to Tython as an apprentice.

Not with a saber he wouldn’t. Which is what i’m trying to say, Vitiate isn’t on a high tier as a duelist.  

So what? He doesn't even need to take his saber out to stomp her. Ti would get stomped by someone HoT defeated bro. That's the point.

In a match where we have no idea what happened, whether or not the HoT pressed Vitiate or vice versa or whether Vitiate just kept his distance. Fact is, we can only speculate about that fight.

As explained above, we know how it starts and the ending of it. We see Vitiate doing some sort of sorcery and create weak copies of himself to attack HoT. HoT manages to kill them off. And at the end, we see HoT closing down on Vitiate and Vitiate trying to send him back with TK and undo him with lightning but its not enough as HoT manages to close the gap again and strike him down.

I respect that, so before i continue to my argument i want to clear this up. I’m not arguing that these quote are invalid, but rather that based his accolades have holes. Like the scourge one. I’m not suggesting that he isn’t the champion of the order that much is true. But, like with Anakin, I don’t believe the HoT or Anakin would out right butcher everyone in that era. I can understand the author's intention and i respect the HoT. SO when i say “ambiguous” I don’t say it to dismiss it(although it may seem like it) I say it because i would personally like more context on the quote. No disrespect meant.

Got it.

Now on to my  main argument.

Even as 22bby Shaak Ti is thought to be a combat specialist
“formidable combat specialist”
—Star Wars fact file

Her lightsaber style is described as fluid and graceful(oh fuck me ataru)
“Shaak Ti’s lightsaber style was fluid and graceful, making the most of her enhanced spatial awareness. Few escaped her deadly, swirling blade.”
—Star Wars: Fact File

Shaak Ti is both revered by the entire order and is among the most accomplished in lightsaber combat and this is when she was in the Jedi order

“The Jedi revere Shaak Ti as one of the highest of their order and among the most accomplished in lightsaber combat”
—Star Wars: The Force Unleashed campaign guide.

As you can no doubt see, Shaak Ti is thought to be one of the best of her order. She’s fought against Grievous who has utterly destroyed Jedi who were decently powerful in their own right. While it wasn’t for as long as her fellow Jedi, Ki-Adi. It’s still worth noting that she and the other Jedi were forced to crashland and fight through droids. She’s fought a mercenary and a bounty hunter after having been shot right in the chest.
Shaak Ti could give the HoT a decent fight alone in sabers and maybe in force Powers. If we add A’sharad, someone who has contended with some of the best(contended, not bested) and you have a tag team which excels in Lightsaber combat. A’sharad has impressed Ki-Adi Mundi and Sharad Hett with his lightsaber skills and after, he even impresses the Dark Woman, his master.  

So what i’m mainly arguing here is one thing.

My team is the better swordsmen and have the Quotes that specifically say that they’re lightsaber masters and legendary force users. I’m not arguing that either of them would stomp, no. I believe that this team is pretty well equipped to deal with the HoT.

The only reason why HoT doesn't outshine them as a duelist is because he is a video game character. We don't get full visualization of his fights. However, this doesn't mean he lacks saber showings as I said before.

Jedi Consular/Sith Inquisitor classes are focused on force abilities where Knight/Warrior classes are focused on dueling related abilities. So it is commonly accepted that HoT mostly relied on his dueling abilities to defeat his enemies which is why looking at his combat history will tell you what a duelist he is.

Also,HoT's class description describes him quite well:

"Combining the foresight of the Force with unrivaled reflexes and practiced physical precision, the Knight turns combat into an art form, gracefully executing acrobatic feats in tandem with elegant lightsaber tactics."

"The Jedi Knight’s graceful movements are awesome to behold. Freezing a moment in this display captures the deep commitment underlying the Jedi’s dazzling abilities."

What makes HoT so special is that his thing is dueling but unlike other saber oriented jedi, he is too powerful to push back or overwhelm with the force.

I think HoT can even take out Hett before Ti closes down on HoT.  In SWTORE, it is stated that HoT would still be a significant threat in battlefield even if he lost his saber due to his mastery of the force and even Vitiate is impressed by his "immense power". IIRC, Hett lacks force feats and since he didn't duel Kenobi on even ground and still lost, I'm not sure how he would be able to pull off anything significant against HoT.

Defeating Scourge in a duel or even forcing him to a stalemate before his own prime is more impressive than anything the duo has done imo. Scourge himself specializes in close ranged combat and was a really good combatant with good feats even before he was permanently amped by powerful sorcery + became immortal + gained 300 years of experience of fighting Jedi/Sith(he killed 100 Jedi and 1000 sith btw). There is a reason why the Dark Council feared him.

So I think that HoT would outclass them in the force at the beginning of the fight as he went toe to toe with far more powerful opponents and this would make the duo more hesitant to close the gap and at that point, HoT could likely take out Hett temporarily and defeat Ti in a duel without much trouble. Even if they manage to close the gap at the same time, HoT would still out duel them as his speciality is lightsaber combat and he is even more capable as a duelist than he is as a force user.

Lol such a "carthage" way of debating. jK

Sinious wrote: Again its HoT you're meant to be impressed with, not Morr.

No, I'm supposed to be impressed with the Hero's opponents, the Hero's feats(which come from fighting genuinely powerful people) and I'm not impressed Bengal Morr, because he has nothing good to his name, that's it.

Interesting, how so? I mean when 2 people fight and person 1 defeats person 2, what could person 2 be referring to when he/she says to person 1 "You are stronger than anyone else I have known" if not combat related abilities?

Because, the phrase is subjective. There have been several instances where the protagonist of each and every SW story have fought against someone and they've been told that they are powerful in the force EVEN though they are dueling. Like i said, it's rather ambiguous, you cannot deny that. A good quote regardless.

Vitiate? No, on the contrary, his prep for the other ritual backfired and weakened him.

What Shaak Ti has done is in no way comparable to Vitiate's feat.

Quote for the weakened Vitiate part? I've always seen it, but I hardly pay attention to thing that will eventually be swarmed with trolls.

I didn't say he'd stomp them. Especially not Thor. If Yoda said Ki Adi Mundi is the only one who can defeat Sidious and if Mundi had no limitations that contradicted what Yoda says, then it would be a legit accolade yes. But since that is not the case, your example is irrelevant to HoT's case.

Weak dude. The example remains, Ki-Adi was thought to be the only one to be able to take on someone like Sharad Hett, not Yoda, not Adi Gallia, Not Eeth Koth, Not Dark Woman and not Dooku, No one else just Ki-Adi that quote alone, however, does not put him above Yoda, Dooku, Adi or Dark Woman, hell even Eeth Koth might be his equal, but the others? they are his superiors. The same can be said for some of The Hero's compatriots.

But do you admit HoT's superiority over Satele?

I hesitate to answer yes, because i simply don't see it, sorry.

We know the beginning and the ending of the fight. Vitiate tried to send HoT flying with his TK but only managed to force him back a few steps. Since Vitiate's TK was still vastly superior to Ti's TK even at that point, I'm not sure why you still think she could do anything to harm HoT with her telekinesis when Vitiate failed.

I said she'd give him a fight you dolt, not that'd she WTFPWN the HoT :\

Regardless, Ti's Telekinesis has explosive capability as shown in OCW, so she could keep the HoT at a distance if she chose too. It's like taking on a swordmaster and an expert Sharpshooter, it only takes one mistake and then Ti and A'sharad press the offensive.

I'm sorry but did Aurra beat them in their primes and on even ground?

She had previously fought a bunch of other Jedi prior to engaging Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and despite that she still gave them a solid beating. Then she killed Sharad Hett, a Jedi master of Legendary Skill, then she's killed several of the best warriors the Order had to offer.

Also, HoT didn't just defeat them, he outright blitzed them. So say what you wanna say but it is always impressive to blitz force-users who can defeat Jedi High Council members and its not the only time HoT speed blitzed sith warriors.

So... It's impressive to take on warriors who have held their own against council members...



Mmkay.

"Well, fighting off the guy who beat Grevious and Darth Vader evenly for a respectable amount of time also says a lot." Are you referring to A'Sharrad vs Kenobi? I thought you were talking about Ti so I got confused.

I was talking about Hett, yes.

These feats by themselves don't put him above this duo. Im giving you these small feats to show you that HoT has a very consistent history as a combatant. HoT was so powerful and capable from day 1 that they sent him to defeat swarms of flesh raiders with a practice saber even when he first came to Tython as an apprentice

Flesh raiders don't compare to someone who has killed a Krayt Dragon(hett) before they were officially trained and someone whose taken on General Grevious :\

So what? He doesn't even need to take his saber out to stomp her. Ti would get stomped by someone HoT defeated bro. That's the point.

So she'd get beaten by the random nerds that the HoT took out? By Flesh raiders? by Bengol Morr?  That's a very "carthage way of thinking" dude

As explained above, we know how it starts and the ending of it. We see Vitiate doing some sort of sorcery and create weak copies of himself to attack HoT. HoT manages to kill them off. And at the end, we see HoT closing down on Vitiate and Vitiate trying to send him back with TK and undo him with lightning but its not enough as HoT manages to close the gap again and strike him down.

Yes and that's all swell, but we don't know jack about what happened in the middle, which is the important part dude. Again, we simply don't know how the fight went, it's the same for anything with Jaden korr, Kyle Katarn and some of Meetra's malachor run, we simply don't know what they chose to do.

The only reason why HoT doesn't outshine them as a duelist is because he is a video game character. We don't get full visualization of his fights. However, this doesn't mean he lacks saber showings as I said before.

Jedi Consular/Sith Inquisitor classes are focused on force abilities where Knight/Warrior classes are focused on dueling related abilities. So it is commonly accepted that HoT mostly relied on his dueling abilities to defeat his enemies which is why looking at his combat history will tell you what a duelist he is.

The thing is, being commonly accepted doesn't matter to me. It's "commonly accepted" that Vitiate can't do diddly squat without a nexus, it's "commonly accepted" that the HoT could stomp everyone in his era and that i don't care for. The HoT is a duelist and a force user of great power, we cannot be completely sure of how he fought in the battles he was a part of.  

Something being commonly accepted doesn't make it right, Sinious, you of all people know this.

Also,HoT's class description describes him quite well:

"Combining the foresight of the Force with unrivaled reflexes and practiced physical precision, the Knight turns combat into an art form, gracefully executing acrobatic feats in tandem with elegant lightsaber tactics."

"The Jedi Knight’s graceful movements are awesome to behold. Freezing a moment in this display captures the deep commitment underlying the Jedi’s dazzling abilities."

Fucking ATARU!!!!!!!

What makes HoT so special is that his thing is dueling but unlike other saber oriented jedi, he is too powerful to push back or overwhelm with the force.

So... he's basically Shaak Ti?

I think HoT can even take out Hett before Ti closes down on HoT.  In SWTORE, it is stated that HoT would still be a significant threat in battlefield even if he lost his saber due to his mastery of the force and even Vitiate is impressed by his "immense power". IIRC, Hett lacks force feats and since he didn't duel Kenobi on even ground and still lost, I'm not sure how he would be able to pull off anything significant against HoT.

He's not taking down a duo like them easily, especially when Shaak Ti excels in group combat. Even if he did achieve that, he'd have to separate them and that's going to be difficult in a neutral space, if he TK's Shaak Ti away, she's going to be, as i stated above, firing explosive Telekinetic strikes at him while Hett duels him.

If he Tk's Hett, A'sharad is going to get back(he's survived Aurra's telekinetic wave that thrust him into a computer panel? and exploded it) and Join Ti back in the fight while she's holding the Hero on her own.

In an other likely scenario, the second he turns away to focus on Hett, Shaak Ti can be on him with a flurry of saber strikes or a TK wave

Defeating Scourge in a duel or even forcing him to a stalemate before his own prime is more impressive than anything the duo has done imo. Scourge himself specializes in close ranged combat and was a really good combatant with good feats even before he was permanently amped by powerful sorcery + became immortal + gained 300 years of experience of fighting Jedi/Sith(he killed 100 Jedi and 1000 sith btw). There is a reason why the Dark Council feared him.

Better than being the second Jedi to have withstood Grievous' assault? a guy who could move at high levels of speed? Or better than Obi-Wan Kenobi? Aurra Sing? maybe, but my team is not fodder compared to the Hero buddy.

So I think that HoT would outclass them in the force at the beginning of the fight as he went toe to toe with far more powerful opponents and this would make the duo more hesitant to close the gap and at that point, HoT could likely take out Hett temporarily and defeat Ti in a duel without much trouble. Even if they manage to close the gap at the same time, HoT would still out duel them as his speciality is lightsaber combat and he is even more capable as a duelist than he is as a force user.

My response to this has already been made above. the HoT won't beat one of the Order's most accomplished and revered Jedi duelists, a woman who's Makashi has been compared to Dooku and was listed among him, Depa Billaba,Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker as the greatest swordbeings.

He is not going to take down someone who fought a warrior as powerful as Aurra Sing and Obi-Wan Kenobi, not at all with ease.

Forgive the mess, Pc's dying and i had to hurry.

I'm trying to figure out if you're actually misunderstanding my words or if this is a debating tactic you came up with to delay your defeat.

ACCEPT THE HOT'S WEAKNESSES, LIMITATIONS AND INFERIORITY!

Sinious wrote: No, I'm supposed to be impressed with the Hero's opponents, the Hero's feats(which come from fighting genuinely powerful people) and I'm not impressed Bengal Morr, because he has nothing good to his name, that's it.

NO OMG ITS THE ACCOLADE HOT GETS FROM BENGAL IS WHAT MATTERS HERE. I NEVER SAID DEFEATING HIM IS IMPRESSIVE.

Because, the phrase is subjective. There have been several instances where the protagonist of each and every SW story have fought against someone and they've been told that they are powerful in the force EVEN though they are dueling. Like i said, it's rather ambiguous, you cannot deny that. A good quote regardless.

You can't possibly be serious.

Quote for the weakened Vitiate part? I've always seen it, but I hardly pay attention to thing that will eventually be swarmed with trolls.

Scourge says it in several places in the cutscenes of JK storyline. Why do you wanna see it though?

Weak dude. The example remains, Ki-Adi was thought to be the only one to be able to take on someone like Sharad Hett, not Yoda, not Adi Gallia, Not Eeth Koth, Not Dark Woman and not Dooku, No one else just Ki-Adi that quote alone, however, does not put him above Yoda, Dooku, Adi or Dark Woman, hell even Eeth Koth might be his equal, but the others? they are his superiors. The same can be said for some of The Hero's compatriots.

Again, actual evidence contradicts with your example. Nothing contradicts with HoT's so no, the example does not remain.

I hesitate to answer yes, because i simply don't see it, sorry.

I'm gonna tell you what I told Ant when he made arguments against Revan's own words.

"The character's own opinion is more important than yours."

I said she'd give him a fight you dolt, not that'd she WTFPWN the HoT :\

Regardless, Ti's Telekinesis has explosive capability as shown in OCW, so she could keep the HoT at a distance if she chose too. It's like taking on a swordmaster and an expert Sharpshooter, it only takes one mistake and then Ti and A'sharad press the offensive.

yYou dodged everything I said so I'll ask again. How is she gonna keep HoT at a distance when someone with superior showings failed to do so?

She had previously fought a bunch of other Jedi prior to engaging Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and despite that she still gave them a solid beating. Then she killed Sharad Hett, a Jedi master of Legendary Skill, then she's killed several of the best warriors the Order had to offer.

You could've just said no.

So... It's impressive to take on warriors who have held their own against council members...



Mmkay.

I said blitz.  

I was talking about Hett, yes.

Oh well then I think this is a better description of the feat: Hett lost to that guy in an advantageous setting.

Flesh raiders don't compare to someone who has killed a Krayt Dragon(hett) before they were officially trained and someone whose taken on General Grevious :\

Before officially trained? What do you mean by that? Also when did Ti take on GG? I only know about 3 of their encounters. Once where he humiliated her and other jedi, one time where she was running away from him and one time in the deleted scene where she gets captured and dies.  

So she'd get beaten by the random nerds that the HoT took out? By Flesh raiders? by Bengol Morr?  That's a very "carthage way of thinking" dude

What?    I was talking about Vitiate.

Yes and that's all swell, but we don't know jack about what happened in the middle, which is the important part dude. Again, we simply don't know how the fight went, it's the same for anything with Jaden korr, Kyle Katarn and some of Meetra's malachor run, we simply don't know what they chose to do.

You can't just ignore the cutscenes cause you feel like the important part is the middle.

The thing is, being commonly accepted doesn't matter to me. It's "commonly accepted" that Vitiate can't do diddly squat without a nexus, it's "commonly accepted" that the HoT could stomp everyone in his era and that i don't care for. The HoT is a duelist and a force user of great power, we cannot be completely sure of how he fought in the battles he was a part of.  

Something being commonly accepted doesn't make it right, Sinious, you of all people know this.

I'm not sure how that is relevant to what I said. The game itself confirms that HoT is more oriented in melee and based on the cutscenes we see and the opponents he fights, we can see that he has the raw power to keep up with uber powerhouses, close the gap and overwhelm them in duels. This is commonly accepted like Anakin being the chosen one is commonly accepted lol.

Fucking ATARU!!!!!!!

So... he's basically Shaak Ti?

Only 5 times better.

He's not taking down a duo like them easily, especially when Shaak Ti excels in group combat. Even if he did achieve that, he'd have to separate them and that's going to be difficult in a neutral space, if he TK's Shaak Ti away, she's going to be, as i stated above, firing explosive Telekinetic strikes at him while Hett duels him.

If he Tk's Hett, A'sharad is going to get back(he's survived Aurra's telekinetic wave that thrust him into a computer panel? and exploded it) and Join Ti back in the fight while she's holding the Hero on her own.

In an other likely scenario, the second he turns away to focus on Hett, Shaak Ti can be on him with a flurry of saber strikes or a TK wave

The opponents HoT defeated disproves this scenario.

Better than being the second Jedi to have withstood Grievous' assault? a guy who could move at high levels of speed? Or better than Obi-Wan Kenobi? Aurra Sing? maybe, but my team is not fodder compared to the Hero buddy.

I really hope you're not talking about the time where Ti and her friends s**t in their pants when GG came to fight them. Obi-wan defeated Hett in a disadvantageous terrain so I'm not sure why you bring up that feat at all. I never said they are fodder. I just said they are inferior.

My response to this has already been made above. the HoT won't beat one of the Order's most accomplished and revered Jedi duelists, a woman who's Makashi has been compared to Dooku and was listed among him, Depa Billaba,Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker as the greatest sword beings.

Oh so accolades of that nature are applicable when it comes to Ti and Hett? I thought you argued against the idea of using them earlier on...

Fated Xtasy wrote: Forgive the mess, Pc's dying and i had to hurry.

I can tell that you didnt take your time while answering me. Most of your replies weren't even related to what I said. I hope I didnt sound douchy, I just wanna end this debate asap as we both know HoT is superior and your only card is HoT being hard to gauge as he is an MMO character.

Sinious wrote: NO OMG ITS THE ACCOLADE HOT GETS FROM BENGAL IS WHAT MATTERS HERE. I NEVER SAID DEFEATING HIM IS IMPRESSIVE.

I said the quote was impressive you dick.

Scourge says it in several places in the cutscenes of JK storyline. Why do you wanna see it though?

A debate's like a chest board, you need to see all the pieces bruh.

Again, actual evidence contradicts with your example. Nothing contradicts with HoT's so no, the example does not remain.

because you say so? being called the most powerful dude evah! doesn't automatically make him everyone's superior. In an era where Revan still lives, we see, by how easily he tooled the strike team, that HoT is simply one of many powerful beings.

I'm gonna tell you what I told Ant when he made arguments against Revan's own words. Very Happy

"The character's own opinion is more important than yours."

yYou dodged everything I said so I'll ask again. How is she gonna keep HoT at a distance when someone with superior showings failed to do so?

and tell me, Sinny, is there any proof that Vitiate was attacking with Force attacks in combat? or simply your own speculation?

I can provide several scans where Shaak is actively fusing her telekinetic ability with her Force attacks and acrobatics whilst simultaneously recovering from her blaster wound.  

You could've just said no.

:\ whatever dude.

Oh well then I think this is a better description of the feat: Hett lost to that guy in an advantageous setting.

Yeah? to a guy who had no problem using Sokan decades before when he was a padawan? The art of using the terrain to the duelist' advantage, hell somewhere in the Jedi Path book, Obi-Wan comments on the use of Sokan(IIRC)

Before officially trained? What do you mean by that?

Around 32 BBY, A'sharad was apprenticed to his father as an informal apprentice, he's obviously not that well trained there seeing as how two years later, he holds his own against Aurra versus his first battle where he got stomped on, like literally.

Also when did Ti take on GG? I only know about 3 of their encounters. Once where he humiliated her and other jedi,

After she and her allies had fought through droids and where evidently not in the best shape.

one time where she was running away from him and one time in the deleted scene where she gets captured and dies.  Question

The new essential chronology and ROTS novel state that Stass Allie and Shaak Ti faced Grievous, but ultimately lost. not sure how to take that tho.

You can't just ignore the cutscenes cause you feel like the important part is the middle.

Of course not, but you can't ignore the middle part just because you feel the beginning and ending are more relevant.

I'm not sure how that is relevant to what I said. The game itself confirms that HoT is more oriented in melee and based on the cutscenes we see and the opponents he fights, we can see that he has the raw power to keep up with uber powerhouses, close the gap and overwhelm them in duels. This is commonly accepted like Anakin being the chosen one is commonly accepted lol.

Appeasing to the status quo is often grounds for an inability to form a factual argument.

HoT becomes a Battlemaster as per the new expansion, cool beans. He's still not bringing anything Shaak hasn't already seen in terms of lightsaber ability.

You can't argue he's more versatile, because Grevious is even more so.

You can't argue that he's stronger, when Shaak's strength has been actually been shown.

You can't argue that he's faster when Shaak has moved so fast, what took ship/transport 7 minutes(approximately), she easily passed in 30 seconds. I'll note that, that too, is the exact amount it took Anakin to fight off droids, free alien slaves, destroy a droid station and stick around to see said freed aliens celebrate their victory.

And i'll note that this is after dodging the magna guards, taking several force pike shots and dueling several magna guards at once, ergo, a tired, wounded Shaak Ti, reached the same destination it took a fast moving transport 7 minutes, in 30 seconds. Imagine the speed of Shaak in a normal state.

Thing about this sinny, Shaak's a force powerhouse as of RotS by all accounts, and unlike most of the Force Users that the HoT took on, she's got power, speed, and strength.

The opponents HoT defeated disproves this scenario.

The opponents HoT faced aren't as skilled as these two.

The opponents HoT faced don't have accolades and feats like these two>

The main opponents that you'll be using to counter this argument are the following.

Not a master of the blade and therefore not an excellent duelist, unlike these.


And he who you're about is the only one who compares due to his combat experience and ability.

Those two are Vitiate and Scourge.

I really hope you're not talking about the time where Ti and her friends s**t in their pants when GG came to fight them.

after crash landing and fighting through, evidently, several Super Battle droids.

Obi-wan defeated Hett in a disadvantageous terrain so I'm not sure why you bring up that feat at all.

Obi-Wan Kenobi, who was a skilled practitioner of Sokan and used it against Bruck Chun and Anakin Skywalker. gg

I never said they are fodder. I just said they are inferior.

Kewl

Oh so accolades of that nature are applicable when it comes to Ti and Hett? I thought you argued against the idea of using them earlier on...

Really?

Me wrote:I respect that, so before i continue to my argument i want to clear this up. I’m not arguing that these quote are invalid, but rather that based his accolades have holes. Like the scourge one. I’m not suggesting that he isn’t the champion of the order that much is true. But, like with Anakin, I don’t believe the HoT or Anakin would out right butcher everyone in that era. I can understand the author's intention and i respect the HoT. SO when i say “ambiguous” I don’t say it to dismiss it(although it may seem like it) I say it because i would personally like more context on the quote. No disrespect meant.

I've been praising the accolades each time you mention them :\


And, since you said this

"The character's own opinion is more important than yours."

well, i certainly hope you mean that buddy, when push comes to shove, i will push back .

Fated Xtasy wrote:I said the quote was impressive you dick.

In this context:

"still I’m not overly impressed with Bengal Morr. Good accolade i suppose."

As if you're being generous by accepting that its a good accolade.

A debate's like a chest board, you need to see all the pieces bruh.

LOL

because you say so? being called the most powerful dude evah! doesn't automatically make him everyone's superior. In an era where Revan still lives, we see, by how easily he tooled the strike team, that HoT is simply one of many powerful beings.

What? Okay, let me clear all that for you.

HoT isn't called the most powerful "dude". He is the best/most powerful(Whatever you wanna call it) Jedi the order has. Revan is not part of the order so he is not even included in that. Also, Revan never tooled a strike team that had HoT in it so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

and tell me, Sinny, is there any proof that Vitiate was attacking with Force attacks in combat? or simply your own speculation?

I can provide several scans where Shaak is actively fusing her telekinetic ability with her Force attacks and acrobatics whilst simultaneously recovering from her blaster wound.  

Watch the cutscenes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkUnFIJjy78

@12:55 @ 16:00

Yeah? to a guy who had no problem using Sokan decades before when he was a padawan? The art of using the terrain to the duelist' advantage, hell somewhere in the Jedi Path book, Obi-Wan comments on the use of Sokan(IIRC)

"Nor did consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade,
or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken
was far more experi-enced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any
such thoughts would probably only get him killed."
- The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi

What does that tell us? That Kenobi didnt consider himself in his prime and that he was in a disadvantageous position. Even if he used that technique, its still not neutral ground as he HAD TO use that to dismiss Hett's advantage.  

Around 32 BBY, A'sharad was apprenticed to his father as an informal apprentice, he's obviously not that well trained there seeing as how two years later, he holds his own against Aurra versus his first battle where he got stomped on, like literally.

Ah I see.

After she and her allies had fought through droids and where evidently not in the best shape.

So if they hadn't fought droids, the outcome would be different? I doubt it.

The new essential chronology and ROTS novel state that Stass Allie and Shaak Ti faced Grievous, but ultimately lost. not sure how to take that tho.

Yep, doesn't really give us any info other than the fact they lost tbh.

Of course not, but you can't ignore the middle part just because you feel the beginning and ending are more relevant.

I never said they are more relevant.  You tried to ignore them and I corrected you. :/

Appeasing to the status quo is often grounds for an inability to form a factual argument.

HoT becomes a Battlemaster as per the new expansion, cool beans. He's still not bringing anything Shaak hasn't already seen in terms of lightsaber ability.

You can't argue he's more versatile, because Grevious is even more so.

You can't argue that he's stronger, when Shaak's strength has been actually been shown.

You can't argue that he's faster when Shaak has moved so fast, what took ship/transport 7 minutes(approximately), she easily passed in 30 seconds. I'll note that, that too, is the exact amount it took Anakin to fight off droids, free alien slaves, destroy a droid station and stick around to see said freed aliens celebrate their victory.

And i'll note that this is after dodging the magna guards, taking several force pike shots and dueling several magna guards at once, ergo, a tired, wounded Shaak Ti, reached the same destination it took a fast moving transport 7 minutes, in 30 seconds. Imagine the speed of Shaak in a normal state.

Appeasing to status quo? LMAO dude so if I say, the World is flat, will you applaud me for it? Cause, official sources confirm my arguments in HoT's case and you're tying to make them sound like they're just commonly accepted myths.

Really? Has Ti ever fought someone who has mastered all 7 forms and performed relatively good?

Why do you bring up Grievous when Ti never did anything impressive against him?

He doesn't outshine them in feats but his force Valor should be superior to either of them due to his immense power and his alignment in melee combat.

How is that a combat speed feat exactly? Who has she killed/defeated in 30 seconds? Cause that in no way proves that Ti's speed is Anakin level.

Thing about this sinny, Shaak's a force powerhouse as of RotS by all accounts, and unlike most of the Force Users that the HoT took on, she's got power, speed, and strength.

LOL if you say so.

The opponents HoT faced aren't as skilled as these two.

The opponents HoT faced don't have accolades and feats like these two>

The main opponents that you'll be using to counter this argument are the following.

Not a master of the blade and therefore not an excellent duelist, unlike these.

And he who you're about is the only one who compares due to his combat experience and ability.

Those two are Vitiate and Scourge.

I never denied that some of them are unexplored but most of them have accolades that keep them from being irrelevant.

And both Vitiate and Scourge would defeat this team imo.

after crash landing and fighting through, evidently, several Super Battle droids.

Which makes up for getting humiliated? And even if it did, then at best its not something to lowball Ti but you're trying to present it like its an indication combat prowess. So I ask, what has Ti achieved in that scene or anywhere else against anyone who is near HoT in power or skill?

Obi-Wan Kenobi, who was a skilled practitioner of Sokan and used it against Bruck Chun and Anakin Skywalker. gg

I answered this above. Using the terrain in neutral ground is not the same as fighting on a disadvantageous position. And Kenobi himself admits that Hett was far more experienced in fighting in that dessert and how he had to stop thinking about that cause it would worry him and affect his focus negatively.

I never said they are fodder. I just said they are inferior.

Really?

Me wrote:I respect that, so before i continue to my argument i want to clear this up. I’m not arguing that these quote are invalid, but rather that based his accolades have holes. Like the scourge one. I’m not suggesting that he isn’t the champion of the order that much is true. But, like with Anakin, I don’t believe the HoT or Anakin would out right butcher everyone in that era. I can understand the author's intention and i respect the HoT. SO when i say “ambiguous” I don’t say it to dismiss it(although it may seem like it) I say it because i would personally like more context on the quote. No disrespect meant.

I've been praising the accolades each time you mention them :\

Fair pont, I guess I used bad wording but then again, I can apply the same logic in most of the accolades you presented.

And, since you said this

"The character's own opinion is more important than yours."

well, i certainly hope you mean that buddy, when push comes to shove, i will push back .

I don't see what is there to discuss about it. Unless there is something that contradicts with it or a reason to believe that the character is lying or has hidden motives, there is no reason to disbelieve them when they are talking about their own power or people they know well. So go on, use that against me in the future.